Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got my peachie yesterday from ben siegel and he/she is beautiful. It is pretty tame so far too. I was just making sure my setup was ok. Well, the monitor is 2 feet and the cage is 4Lx2Wx2H. It has about 10 inches of cypress mulch that is well misted. There are two places to hide; one is a "4 story" Retes stack with the top level right around 120 degrees, and there is a burrow i made under the water dish on the cool side. There are multiple branches for climbing. Is this ok? And I know that I will have to build a new cage in a couple of months. When do you think he/she will start eating?

Thanks so much to whoever responds,
Will

At this point, you really should decide what needs to be done, get it done, and leave the monitor alone. It will eat when it is ready.

IMO: 120F is on the cool side, 4x2x2 will not last more than a month or two, Cypress sucks (dirt w/ leaf litter is what I use for peachies), Misting is a kludge to fix humidity retention problems in the enclosure and substrate, I've never had peachies use stacks, I use a sheet of plywood or cork bark for basking, and bunches of cork bark thrown in across the gradient for much more than two hides.

You have not had it long enough to know how tame it is, it is in 'fear of death' mode. Relax, give it room (don't handle it, or watch it every second of the day), and in a couple of months it may relax a bit. From my experience normal peachies are very opinionated, they can be quite tame, but only tame on their terms. Tame does not mean you can reach in anytime and grab it without pissing it off, it is about respect and trust. Trust is built by providing good things, and respecting the monitor when it wants to be left alone. Feed with tongs, they are very agressive eaters.

Good Luck,

--Robert

I am using cypress mulch because it is readily availabe and dirt isn't. I am using the Retes stack because the monitor is stressed and hides in the dark corner of the retes stack. He/she is also doing the same thing someone posted about a week ago. It is submerging itself because it feels safe.

Thanks,
Will

if you mean it is submerging itself in water and it needs to do that to feel safe, that's because its other hide spots aren't suitable.

Well, it is kinda strange because he finds one hide spot and stays there for almost the entire day. Then, when i change the water from him swimming I will come back down to check on him and he is in the water. But, the next time I come down he is in his other hiding spots. I think it might have been him hydrating himself from the shipping.

keep an eye on it. If it still uses the water dish in a few days it is either telling you that the enclosure isn't humid enough or it has no place to hide (places that it would like to hide, not places that you'd like it to hide). If you feel you can't get dirt, why not try flat bits of wood on the substrate, see if it digs under?

what DK said.

What about leaves, leaf litter is dry on top, moist underneath and will stay that way without needing water misted on.

I live in scorched earth SoCal, and I can find leaves and dirt, it is everywhere (you do need to go outside though).

This early on, being tame/calm is a sign something is not right, you have some ideas on where to start looking now.

Good Luck,

--Robert

living in Southern Cal, do you add any Eucalypt leaves to your leaf litter? Not only are they leathery and slow to deteriorate (compared to most typical deciduous trees), but they add an nice smell to the enclosure.

Nothing grows where those leaves fall. I know I'm being overly protective, as obviously lacies must deal with it. I have used moslty white oak, scrub oak, and liquid amber. The liquid amber is plentiful here, but the leaves do not seem to last near as long as the oaks.

--Robert

Leaves arent hard to find in fall(my backyard is filled up high), but finding unfertalized dirt is a different story because chemlawn fertelizes our lawn and backyard. Today he didnt even touch his water dish. He hasnt moved all day. But, now i wouldnt say he is tame because he is as quick s lightning tryin to get out of that cage when I am trying to change the water. I will order some flat pieces of wood instead of some of the branchs I have. When would a good time be to start implementing handling in his life( he is supposed to be a long term captive)? like a month or 2?

Thank you so much Robert and DK,
Will

If you are thinking using eucalyptus leaves, make sure you get some long-dead ones. Take a few and leave them in water overnight, and take a look at all the oils that float up. Then throw them all out and find something else! Any plant whose leaves are aromatic when fresh is a poor choice. Most of those compounds serve to deter plant-eating animals -- they can be flat-out toxic, hormone-mimicking or blocking agents, almost anything bad you can think of, some plant has adopted as a defense. Oak leaves, mentioned above, are not that great either. They contain lots of tannins (which used to be used for tanning hides) that act in part by chemically changing proteins so that they are indigestible. Many leaves that don't mulch or rot quickly won't digest either if they are accidentally ingested. Bottom line, be cautious about what you are forcing your animals to live in continuous close contact with. Plain old dirt has already broken down all of these nasties, and is pretty good stuff!

Very valid points. Do you know of anyone that has had issues with their monitors being kept on eucalyptus leaves? I'd be interested to hear about it. I've only had my monitors for three years, but they've been on eucalypt leaves for most of that time with no issues.

Because eucalypts drop their leaves steadily all year round, the ground in lace monitor habitat is covered in eucalypt leaf litter. The wild monitors certainly do not avoid it. When I put fresh leaf litter in my enclosure, my monitors investigate it by digging and tongue flicking, probably because I collect it from out in the bush. It probably smells of small skinks and other animals that live in the leaf litter, perhaps even other monitors.

For the most part, those leaves are toxic if ingested, but even then many animals (aside from native phasmids, koalas, greater gliders etc) can eat them with no ill effect. We used to feed them to giraffes and many other large mammals at the zoo.

Many of those toxic leaves have very good antibacterial properties when applied topically. Australian 'tea tree' oil is now a very popular naturopathic ointment for all sorts of things. It comes from a type of Melaleuca, whose leaves have a similar smell to Eucalyptus species.

I would agree with you to only use dried eucalpytus leaves (I collect my enclosure substrate as leaf litter, which is already quite dry).

DK~
I don't know of anyone who keeps monitors on euc leaves, so no info there either way. It's more of a general caution -- knowing that many plants are toxic, why risk a problem when there are plenty of inert alternatives available for use as bedding. Also, some of the more common eucs in California (such as blue gums) do not drop their leaves naturally here in the way that they do in Australia, and it is my impression that the leaf litter here is nastier stuff.
While it is true that many of these plant defensive compounds have antibacterial and antifungal properties, I am concerned as to whether these are specific activities, or simply the result of more general "anti-life" effects, whereby the small guys just die faster. When I don't know, I chicken out on the risk.
As you know, wild monitors will eat all sorts of garbage along with their prey, and not just a few leaves -- hooks, lead sinkers and yards of monofilament line with a dead fish, a thousand meat ants and a chunk of hot asphalt with a roadkilled snake, or most of the styro package along with the lamb chop nicked off the esky -- probably they are none the worse for it and do it again, but they are also not in a cage, with us fretting over them. In this case I agree with FR when he says "who cares what they do in the wild?", else we'd feed a lot of putrid dead rabbit that's 90% maggots by weight! That's not a very strong point of agreement, but anything's a start.

haha... the rabbit comment reminded me of a lace monitor I tried to photograph a couple of years ago as it ate a rancid, roadkilled swamp wallaby. The monitor had its head buried up to its shoulders inside the wallaby's body cavity, but another car showed up with a small, yappy dog, causing the monitor to calmly crawl part way up a nearby tree. I had a friend take this photo of me near the tree when the monitor decided to turn its head over its back and clear its nostrils of liquid wallaby with a loud snort. Pong!

Good one, nice photo too! It would make an interesting thread, "things I've worn that monitors gave me".

a matter of x weeks, it is more of a matter with the individual and how it feels with you.

Feed it with tongs, they will associate you with food, but I have never had this be a bad thing (but I don't have enough monitors to say that is always the case). Talk to it (I know I'm nuts) whenever you are 'in' the enclosure (feeding, changing water, etc...). Eventually it may (out of curiousity) start to approach you. Take it from there.

LTC is a useless term, it could have been imported 2 months ago, petshops use it because w.c. has a more negative image. Older animals seem to be more set in their ways, but every monitor is different. Patience, it may take years, it may never happen. Even tame ones are not too fun to handle, as their claws are deadly. But all of mine have calmed down considerably with time, but it takes alot of patience to wait it out.

Good Luck,

--Robert

It is from Ben Siegel so I will trust him that it is LTC. I am trying to get him to eat, so what would be a good food source? A live baby mouse?

Thanx,
Will

if it is trying to bolt from the cage every time you open it, I would avoid handling it for a while for that behaviour will increase. By not handling it (or even touching it) when you change the water dish or spot clean the tank, the monitor will eventually learn that it has nothing to fear from you. Then you can try letting your hand linger in there for a while to see if the monitor comes to investigate. In time, it may crawl onto your hand or arm. Then you may want to try gently picking it up.

DK and I have similiar ideas and techniques. What he said and...

Mice are good food, you may need to readjust to it's schedule, but with live mice I would just put it in, in such a way, the monitor knows I did it. You may have to work up to tong feeding. Overall it is just a matter of time and patience, but my experience has been it is a switch, one day they will be very cautious, the next you will have to be very careful to not get bit. But that is more than likely many months away, patience, persistance, always avoiding anything that could be negative. It may not eat with you watching, but that is not important.

I have found that by just taking care of them and leaving them alone, they tend to do much better and calm down quicker than if I am constantly mucking or watching them.

--Robert

I think you are right in that our methods of interacting with our monitors are similar. And I agree that there seems to be a point at which they switch. It's not a gradual process, but the changes seem to come in spurts. They act one way for ages, then suddenly change. They act that way for ages, then suddenly change.

I have two females that I pretty much never handle, so now they'll let me do just about anything in the enclosure without freaking out (last weekend I did some drilling in there with a hand drill, and they took that in their stride). They know I'll leave them alone. One of those females has never been out of the enclosure since I put her in almost a year ago. Two days ago I had a 'Jane Goodall' moment with her. I was doing something in the enclosure when she crawled up my arm and rested there. I shifted her around and held her so that her belly was resting on my hand and she stayed like that, flicking her tongue calmly, until I put her back down a few minutes later. Today she did the same thing again. I a shift in behaviour has taken place.

For me, it is moments like those that make all the time waiting and all the bad things that happen worthwhile.

I really think people tend to not be patient enough and expect monitors to trust them in a week or month or months, when they give no reason to be trusted. Trust needs to be earned.

Keep up the good work, and keep posting those wild monitor pics when you can!

--Robert

I was correct in thinking that a shift in that female's behaviour has taken place. This morning I let the male that is housed with her go for a wander around on the floor. She seemed keen to be let out as well, so I opened the door and lifted her (which, in itself, would have been unheard of a week ago), held her for a few minutes, then put her down. That was the first time she's been out of the enclosure since she's been put in there. I picked her up off the floor and put her back in after a few minutes of wandering around so it would be a positive experience, then stupidly let her out again half an hour later. I say stupidly, for this time she had a minor freakout when I picked her up to put her back in the enclosure. Hopefully this will not mean a step back.

The really interesting thing is that, while on the floor, the male that is housed with her (and with which she gets along with extremely well) immediately approached her with twitching head like she was an animal he had never seen before (not the head twitch of lust, but the head twitch he normally reserves for the other male - a dominance display). Perhaps he was trying to say that the areas outside the enclosure are his?