Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all, I have to make an online help/information document for my communications class, and i'm doin leos. but i need pics of as many morphs as i can get. If anyone wouldn't mind posting photos for me to use i would really appreciate it! If you post photos, please post your name also so i can give photo credits.
Thanks -jay

het rainwater albino

oh damn i forgot the pic sorry

here it is btw my names danny

high yellow lavender

high yellow circleback

this pic covers a few morphs
1. patternless
2. hypo tangerine
3. tremper albino
4. normal

striped leopard geckos

jungle

variation of hypo tangerine's

That really orange one is beautiful!
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

a true stripe has a striped tail. That is a jungle or some would say a partial stripe.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

I would definitely call that animal a stripe. You're right, it does not have a complete stripe from head to tail tip but it has a striped body and an aberrant patterned tail, actually looks like a broken up stripe. Where did you get your definition of stripe, anyway? I'm not trying to be rude (promise) but I was just curious as to who your source was. Maybe I can learn a few things from them?
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

THANK YOU KELLI!!! IM NOT HERE TO START A DEBATE INFACT I REALLY DONT CARE WHAT SOMEONES DEFINITION OF A STRIPE IS!!!THAT GECKO IS A TRUE STRIPE AND THAT OTHE IS A TRUE JUNGLE!!!!NOT EVERY STRIPED GECKO CAN LOOK LIKE THE ONE PICURED BELOW. HERE IS A PIC OF A FULLY STRIPED GECKO

you need to ship it to me ASAP just so I can look at it in person to make sure though. :-p
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

adfa
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

I don't think anyone could have a difference of opinion on that one, that's a stripe by any definition I've heard of.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

as far as i know never bred any stripes. i find it hard to believe you are the expert on them. i would be mad typing in caps if you comented to me in such a way. the past few posts you have posted you have been acting like i real know it all,making a fool out of yourself not to mention behaving like a total a-hole. it's poeple like you that scare the old times off (hey why bother posting when some punk know it all answers everything and swears it's true,regardless of the lack of experience).
i have been trying to give you the benfit of the doubt but im sorry but you have gone too far and i almost wish you would just fade away back into the croud. i hate having to say these things but this is just my opinion.... if nothing else you owe this young man an appology for your words, comments and sacastic attitude
-robin
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

First hand experience counts far more than what you read or hear form others. Now, can't we all just get along? LOL actaully this type of discussion is refreshing on the Leopard Gecko Forum, I like it!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Obviously for whatever reasons you don't like me Robin, as you seem to take every opportunity you can to insult me and attack me personally. I don't do that to you. As far as I know I have never done ANYTHING to you, and in fact have refrained on every occassion from returning insults you have thrown on me. That's not why I am here. I again request that you refrain from personal attacks like you made in the post above. It is a violation of the TOS and just plain mean. Is it really that difficult for you to just be civil? Has it occurred to you that I am a human being with feelings and that it hurts when you are so mean and insulting to me, or do you get pleasure out of that? I am a nice person and have no desire to have any conflict with you, insult you, or cause you any harm whatsoever. I am sorry that you seem to find yourself so irritated by my posting style and that I seem to rub you the wrong way so much, but I am who I am and my writing style is what it is I am definately not going anywhere. I think you have a lot of knowledge I could learn from, and I would like to be able to dialogue with you on occassion on a civil basis, but I am reaching my limit of tolerance with your insults, attacks, and attempts at slandering me. I have so far refrained from reporting you to kingsnake for violating the terms of service, despite your behavior towards me personally I think you make an extremely valuable contribution to this forum and don't want to see you go, for everyone else's sake and for my own in learning from your experiences. However these unwarranted insults and attacks simply need to stop. I don't think that civility is to much to ask of anyone. I would greatly prefer it if we could just get along, but if it is that difficult for you to be tolerant and civil perhaps it is better for you just not to read my posts.

It's not my intent to be offensive to anyone or get anyone all bent out of shape. Though this dialogue I have learned I was under the misimpression that a striped body and tail was a pretty universally accepted definition among experienced breeders. I have found that while some very experienced breeders feel very strongly this is true and have said so on this forum (and these are those that I got that definition from), others of great experience do not. While I am sticking to this definition for my personal reference, I now know this is still great division on this issue and will certainly keep that in mind when discussing this issue in the future. I don't think that a difference of opinion, or even the discovery that such a difference of opinion exists, is any reason for people to get all bent out of shape, and certainly no reason to abandon civility and start hurling insults at people.

And Robin, I am the first one to say I haven't bred any stripes and have already said so myself very clearly at least once before in this thread, but I am interested in learning everything I can about the genetics for a future project. I know for a fact I am not the only one who was extremely suprised to learn that some of the experienced stripe breeders here would call that animal a stripe, and this includes some of those most experienced with breeding stripes.

I would hope that a love for leos and knowledge about them and a respect for common decency and civility would be enough for us al to get along, without all this overreacting and getting all bent out of shape.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

call things as i see them. it's not that i do not disrespect your imput however it's the way it comes across.... you didnt have to tell kirk his animal wasnt a true stripe that sounds rude you could have said from the definition i have that to me isnt what i consider a stripe. the way you handle yourself here makes it out like you are a know it all... i have been keeping reptiles for many years now and still to this day i learn something new ever day.
how would you have like it if when you posted a pic of your tang albinos quoting that it was going hybino and i said "that isnt a true hybino".... i sure would be willing to bet it would have royally ticked you off. so kirk post his namiaml you tell him it isnt a stripe and get smarty with him because he is upset and typing in caps. you dont appologize just responmde in a sarcastic tone.
i do not get this reference to slander and all this other buncha horse crap repoting me to k-snake (lol what your feelings get hurt?)... and i dont take kindly to your mild threats and the contex in which you write in regards to legalities.
i call things as i see them, they are my own opinions and thats it....
my post was made to responde to a rude and discourtious post in which you made....... basically backinh kirk up and stating a few facts and opinions.
might be a good idea to check your ego and maybe learn a lesson or two about being humble,respectful and curtious to others. it seems you can dish out in your own way but cant take it when it comes back to you
good day
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Hi Robin

If you took the time to read the thread you would see that I did apologize to Kirk (in large part due to your post, actually), though I don't think it was absolutely neccessary, as I believe we had already communicated on a civil if not freindly basis and gotten well past that difference in opinion. I was not being rude, only stating an opinion that many of the most experienced breeders in this area share. I most emphatically disagree that simply stating an opinion about a non-personal subject such as the definition of a morph is any any way offensive or rude. But in truth, I would not have posted it if I had realized it was so controversial, I had thought it was a pretty universally accepted definition that a stripe must have a striped body AND tail. I have had quite a few emails from people affirming that opinion, as well as posts in this thread. But if I had realized there were such differences in that opinion even amongst those very experienced in breeding stripes, I would not have posted what I did, so in that sense it was a mistake. On the other hand, it led to what I and many others found to be an extremelely interesting and enlightening discussion that many of us benefited greatly from (I even got emails from experienced breeders who were quite surpised that there was any controversy about a definition of a stripe at minimum having a striped tail).

I am feminist, and am well aware that I do not place the traditional subservient disqualifiers on my facts and opinions that society tends to expect of women, and this is entirely intentional. I purposefully avoid all that disqualifier crap women have been programmed to place before their opinions, such as "I don't really know anything about this but", "If you don't mind I would like to mention that", "It's only my opinion but I think that", "I know others may disagree with me but". IMO, it's all useless, misogynist verbal flotsam that all of us are better off without. I don't tend to qualify what I say, and often make a conscious effort not to do so. Love it, like it, irked by it, it's not my problem. I make every effort to be polite and detest personal attacks and insults and would despise such behavior in myself even more than I disapprove of it in other people. And I think that is all that is required of civil discourse. Opinions about non-personal subjects are not rude, personal insults are. It's not that complicated. I believe in being polite. I do not believe in subservience and fear. I am a copywriter by trade, and I make my living and am successful because I am good at sounding authoritative and persuasive, perhaps this seeps into my writing style online. Whatever.

Robin, I don't want to rehash old threads with you, I have accepted the apology you made to me in the past, but had hoped that sort of behavior had ended there. If you can't engage in civil discourse with me, I am saddened to request that you ignore me altogether. For while I am very tolerant, even welcoming, of intellectual challenge, I will not tolerate personal attacks, and have reached my limit with you in that regard. I have no desire to attack you, but if this sort of attack occurs again I will be forced to defend myself using all means at my disposal. I would much rather not be forced to do this.

You know Robin, I have encountered a sitiuation similar to what we are experiencing online right now before. I host a VC, and there was one participant who took every opportunity to attack and insult me. She was irritated by my posts and felt I posted like a know-it-all. This was about a year ago, and today, we are not only civil but quite freindly, and all that angst is a distant memory. We have even talked about a F2F if we are ever in the same area. I could see that despite her attacks she had a lot to offer as person, and she came to see the same about me as well.

Robin, you've never done anything unforgivable to me and I don't know of anything I've ever done to you. Despite our differences in posting style, I would hope that our mutual love of geckos and passion for this hobby would prove stronger than any insignificant dfferences in style. I hope that we can continue to communicate in a civil fashion, and at best, perhaps we can even be freindly someday as has happened with this other person in my experience. Few things are irredeemable in life, amongst forgiving hearts. But really, that is up to you. I do not hold grudges towards you and respect the experience and knowledge you have to share. I think that if we can both be a little better and bigger people, we will both benefit.

Will you accept this olive branch?

Peace?
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

That's been the definition of stripe I've seen on here repeatedly from breeders here I respect who work with stripes, including Ross of LeosAnonymous in this post:

(do a search, I can't link)

LeosAnonymous at Thu Oct 16 21:38:17 2003

There was another extensive thread about this a couple weeks or a month or so ago as well. I'd like to find the thread for you, it was very interesting and informative, but I don't have unlimited time to search.

What I gathered (from several breeders who work a lot with stripes) is that the stripes with the stripe tails are the genetic (recessive) stripes and the ones with a jungle tail are just selectively bred jungles where the jungle pattern happens to form a stripey sort of look.

I misplaced my LGM months ago but was reminded in a recent post by Matt of HQ Reptiles that the LGM says that jungle is recessive to normal and stripe is recessive to jungle. That is normal will dominate over jungle and stripe, and jungle will dominate over stripe.

I've been especially interested in the genetics as I am starting a stripe project next year (with a leo with a fully striped tail), so I've been asking a few questions here and there and paying attention to stripe posts. If you've had other experiences I'd be interested in hearing them, as I certainly count you among those experienced herpers whose opinions I respect.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

The problem with stripes is that we don't really know anything about their genetics yet, which leads to mucho confusion and lots of judgement calls.

My idea of perfect/"true" stripe is as follows:

A) Striped Body/Back

B) Fully Striped Tail

C) Broken Neck Band

Those are the three things I want in a stripe.

I have no clue where we should draw the line. Hopefully I will prove out my ""het"" Red Stripes this season, in which case I will know that the stripes I am working with are simple recessive. I can say that I hatched out over 100 offspring from my Red Stripe Male x Carrot Tail and Tangerine females and not a single baby hatched out jungle or striped.

I would also just like to add that I have the boatloads of respect for Kelli (I've come to her for help before) and I'm definitely not trying to contradict her. I do feel that leopard gecko morphs need a bit more structure though.

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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

IMO there are just some much nicer stripes around these days as opposed to even 3 or 4 years ago. Same way there are nicer hypo tangerines around now then there were back then, nicer albinos too. It's all from selective breeding.

Now, if the definition of a striped leopard gecko is going to be different now than it has always been before, please let me know for sure so that I can go change my website to reflect this. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I was trying to pass off a -partial- stripe as a stripe!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I might just be reading your post wrong... but either way I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to contradict you. God knows you have more experience than I do with leopard geckos, and like I said I have turned to you for help in the past.

I only stated what I want to see in my stripes. Maybe "super stripe" is the way to go with the names. =)

But anyways, it seemed like you interpreted my post as directly challenging what you said. I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to make any new rules here, just stating what I look for in a stripe.

The only time I get bothered over the whole stripe thing is when I see the "striped tangerines" around that have totally banded bodies/tails complete with an inflated price tag. Those are definitely not stripes.

Talk to you later.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

Ross, like I told you in the email, I am absolutely not getting upset over a discussion about someone's definition of a certain leopard gecko morph! Ask anyone who knows me even just a little bit and they will tell you that I am a person that speaks my mind and if I have an opinion on something or disagree with something I am going to say so! It does not mean I am mad or upset or that I don't like you or whoever. Just means that I feel that I have something to contribute to a discussion on a forum about herps. It's never personal (well, almost never LOL) so don't sweat the small stuff
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I just hate it when I feel like I might have come across wrong, and in this case I just didn't want anyone to think I was trying to be a "know it all" or anything.

Man.... when did I start acting like such a girl. (no offense ladies, lol!)

Talk to you later Kelli.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

I used to work extensively with stripes. I mean I had several colonies of them. These animals were Tremper bloodline animals and I can say without a doubt that they were genetic striped leos. Now it is true that not all of them were completely striped from head to tail tip. In fact most of them were not. Did they produce all striped babies? Absolutely! Were all of them totally striped head to tail? Nope. As with all leopard geckos, no two were alike and some were fully striped, some had a fully striped body and an abberrant patterened tail, some had half of the body striped and a completely striped tail, some didn't really have that much striping on the body but had a fully striped tail.

I sold off all my striped breeders a few years ago because, believe it or not, at that time juvenile stripes (nice ones) were going for around $30-$45. I wanted to work with higher end animals so they were all sold. I know, boo on me! I am regretting that now, trust me!

Anyway, thanks to my buddy Chris Newsom, I am now producing stripes from the same bloodline as before. Here are just a few of what I have produced from his striped adults:

See what I mean? Now please understand, I am NOT knocking Ross or you or anyone else! I am just posting my experiences with the striped genetics and what I learned when I have reproduced them. Striped leopard geckos are highly variable. Maybe the screamer fully bold striped ones should be called super stripes or something like that. I'm serious!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I'd absolutely have to agree with you. It's 100% sure that all of the geckos you pictured are striped.

I'm also not trying to pick on Kirks post (it just happens to be a good example to work from) but I personally would not call the first a stripe either. In my opinion it has a banded neck, partially striped back, and aberrant/jungle tail...

I do have a quick question... where do you personally draw the line between an aberrant and a stripe and a jungle?

This is an interesting post. I'd love to hear your opinions, along with everyone else who wants to throw in their two cents on the subject.

I'm still bummed I didn't get to come and hang out with you guys last weekend =( I hope you had a good time at the show.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

I looked at Kirk's pic again and it's kina hard to tell about the neck ring thing because it isn't a very close up pic. As far as where do I draw the line goes, I'm not really sure. But, if an animal is hatched out from adults that I know are gentically striped leos but the animal has maybe a partially broken neck band, a fully striped body and an abberrant tail it is still a striped leo IMO, it came from striped Mom and Dad, etc.

Is striping a recessive trait? Yes, in some cases, some bloodlines, it absolutely is. As for the statement made earlier (I believe it was by Starling) that jungle is dominant over stripe and that if one breeds a stripe to a jungle you will not produce any stripes, well it just is not true. I have bred a genetically striped male to a jungle female and produced some stripes.

Ross I am serious about calling them "super stripes"! Hehee yeah we had a blast at the show, it was a lot of fun. Got to hang out with my herper buddies all weekend and it was even my one time a year kid free weekend! Good times, man.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I'm still bummin about not being able to make it up to the Bob Clark show last weekend... I really wanted to hang with you and Robin (along with anyone else there). I'll make it to the next one.

Holly drug me to the Renisance Festival that weekend... This was actually the first time I've gone to one, and holy cow there were some interesting people there. It wasn't so bad I guess.

Anyways... I'm willing to go with Super Stripe if you are, lol! =)

Talk to you later.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

I got that from Matt of HQ reptiles who says he got it direct from the leopard gecko manual, and I would like to point out that your experience of breeding jungle to stripe and getting a stripe does not mean that is not true, that jungle could have been het for stripe.

For example, I bred a SHTCT to an hypotangerine albino CT and got a hypotangerine albinoCT. That does not prove that albinism is not recessive, it just means the non-albino female was het for albinism.

I'm certainly not trying to get anyone's panties in a wad here, I am interested in keeping up to date and getting the best information and using the correct definitions. Thanks Kelli for the experiences you related on your stripe breeding. Definitions can change, for example a year ago the definition I was using is that hypo is ten or less body spots and super hypo is three or less body spots. Now some people are saying that because super hypos are better, the definition is no body spots for a super hypo. Who is right? I don't know. What's the consensus? I'm not sure. It can be hard to say what is exactly correct when there is no arbiter of correctness, only a general consensus among breeders and hobbyists, which is one thing that I try to gather on this site, for my own personal reference. I do think this sort of discussion is helpful in that process.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

I enjoy these types of discussions on this forum IMMENSELY. It is absolutely a good thing. As far as info from the Leopard Gecko Manual goes, I would encourage everyone to base their opinions on personal experience, absolutely.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The LGM is a good source but it is true that the info in this area in particular is developing rapidly. The fact that Matt of HQ reptiles restated it was true holds weight with me as I know he's worked with stripes a long time.

I do depart from the LGM on a few things, like I think a minimum of 45 grams is a better rule of thumb for most geckos than a minimum of 35 as stated in the LGM, but if you read closely you may notice that most geckos these days (at least mine) are on average bigger than in the LGM, I figure this is through selective breeding, I believe I recall the LGM says 7-10 inches is normal adult size but I have a gecko that is 7 1/2 or so and I consider it small...for a small gecko 7" maybe 35 grams is a minimum breeding weight but for an 8 1/2 inch gecko???? Of course using common sense always helps

Of course there are many thing we can't rely on our OWN experience on as some of us don't have it, which is why is especially helpful for others to share their experiences here.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Listen, I am just trying to make the point that not everything in the Leopard Gecko Manual is accurate and that people should make their decisions about these things based on their own experiences OR the experiences of others they trust and respect. And Starling, you did say, "I got that (information) from Matt of HQ reptiles who says he got it direct from the leopard gecko manual" which makes it SEEM as though he was repeating what he had read in the leopard gecko manual rather than what he had discovered through his own experiences. I'm not saying that is so, but your statement sure does indicate such.

I have been doing this for a long time, and I did not start out with hypo tang carrot tails and or/albinos or whatever, I worked with stripes and jungles for a few years too. You also stated, "I would like to point out that your experience of breeding jungle to stripe and getting a stripe does not mean that is not true, that jungle could have been het for stripe." Yeah, anything is possible but I don't think it is so. I had it happen numerous times with numerous animals. I do hope someone does some breeding trials and publishes their results somewhere so we will know for sure, that would be really cool.

Oh, also as far as temp manipulation goes I can only say that every stripe I produced this year save for two were incubated at 80 degrees and all (except for the 2) are females.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Lordy, I'm not even going to get into that, I'm just repeating what I read and personally I wouldn't quote something out of the LGM that I didn't think was true but whatever. I'm certainly not going to speculate on what he meant beyond his words. I believe Matt restated his position clearly on his own in this thread below.

I am curious as to what else you think is wrong in the LGM, if you can think of any specific examples. I don't doubt you are correct in your assertion, just curious as to what those differences may be.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant as to your experiences in getting stripes from jungles, the additional info is pertinent. Your experiences are as valid as anyone else's here that has worked with stripes and I take them quite seriously. I just find it interesting that some people seem sure that stripes and jungles are a recessive trait and others say no. I don't know, but since I have heard differing reports from a pretty large number of breeders with a lot of experience one has to wonder if there are not genetically different mechanisms going on with different strains of stripe. That is, if both/all assertions are not 100% correct, and these differences are explained by different genetic mechanism of creating stripes.

I also note there seems to be a division between breeders who consider jungle tailed animals with a stripe body stripes and those who consider the definition of a stripe to REQUIRE a striped body and striped tail, and I note just in my limited experience of reading such anecdotal experiences related by other breeders, that the same people who say that stripes can have jungle tails also seem to be those who say stripe is not recessive, and those who say very firmly that stripes MUST ABSOLUTELY have striped body and tail seem to say it is a recessive trait. As I am not inclined to doubt the word of any of these experiential accounts, this seems to suggest that there are at least two types of stripes, genetic-recessive and selectively bred (and perhaps this is related to a temperature influenced mechanism? Or perhaps that is a third mechanism? First I've heard of this was from Kirk in this thread.) We have three proven, genetically different strains of albinism (so far, and I keep hearing unsubstantiated rumours of a fourth), it doesn't seem like such a stretch to imagine there may be different strains/mechanism of stripes as well.

Whatever knowledge we have or don't have now, or come to learn in the coming months and years, I appreciate your time in sharing your experiences and what you believe and/or have learned so far.

The truth is out there...
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Just to restate my opinion and experiences working with stripes for the past five generations.

Just because I stated that one pattern morph was dominate over another does NOT mean that it is impossible to hatch a striped gecko from jungle parents, or banded parents for that matter. All that I meant was that your chances of hatching a stripe (Stripe body and tail) are greatly reduced when working with banded geckos, and still reduced (but not nearly as much) when working with 'jungle' (striped or 'broken' patterned) geckos.

I don't that anyone will disagree with the above statement, and over the past five generations this statement has bred true for us.

Now that I read it over again, I'm really not making the water any clearer so to speak. If anything I just made it muddier but I still love working with stripes and jungles, for the simple fact that when I open an egg cup, I NEVER know 100% what I am going to find.

If anyone wants to talk about this in real time, I will be in the #leopardgeckos chat room until 8:00pm eastern time tonight.

Thanks,

Matt and Susan
High Quality Reptiles
www.HQReptiles.com

I would have to agree that the first animal is not a stripe. Not that it really matters but a few years back Tremper was referring to those as his bandit phase. Actually to me a good representation of a stripe will also have at least an abberant tail. But an even more perfect example will also have a striped tail. Some of the really good example nowadays like the ones Robin and some others are producing have the complete striped tails. Also I noticed when I used to work with them that when bred to each other you always got stripes ( or back then probably jungles is a better term). Like it was mentioned earlier, the lines are constantly being improved upon so today I think just like with other morphs you can have a varying degree of animals representing the striped morph. Along those same lines I remember alot of the jungles and stripes a few years back lost their distinct patterns once they achieved adulthood. I have noticed as of late alot of the good examples are keeping their pattern. Just my TWO CENTS!

The first animal I was referring to was the jungle. Sorry for my mix up. AWESOME LOOKING ONE BY THE WAY! Also I do believe the one you have listed as a stripe is in fact a striper! Sorry again.

heres the deal there is no rule book so for now we can say in my opinion it is or isnt.
i produce 300 to 500 geckos a year (small time compared to most) last year i did not produce a single fully striped gecko like the second one pictured. this year there was a huge amount of them. there was no change in my breeding stock. which consists of all tremper stripes and jungles. so how would they just appear? i did "mess" with my incubation temeratures this year, and wala! full stripes. some of you know how stripes came about if you dont. it was ron tremper who first produced these little suckers of which we are debating over by raising the incubation temps. so here is my opinoin on the situation.
we are dealing with a genetic mutation that is manipulated by incubation temps combined with selective breeding. now im no rocket scientist so i dont know if you would call this co-dominant genes or something along those lines?
take it for what it is just my 2 cents but what ever you want to call it stripe, jungle, abberant, or whatever dont say it isnt something there is no true definition for...
thanks for you time and i would like to restate i was not trying to start a debate i was just was bored and wanted to share some photos of my geckos........Kirk

>>heres the deal there is no rule book so for now we can say in my opinion it is or isnt.
>>i produce 300 to 500 geckos a year (small time compared to most) last year i did not produce a single fully striped gecko like the second one pictured. this year there was a huge amount of them. there was no change in my breeding stock. which consists of all tremper stripes and jungles. so how would they just appear? i did "mess" with my incubation temeratures this year, and wala! full stripes. some of you know how stripes came about if you dont. it was ron tremper who first produced these little suckers of which we are debating over by raising the incubation temps. so here is my opinoin on the situation.
>>we are dealing with a genetic mutation that is manipulated by incubation temps combined with selective breeding. now im no rocket scientist so i dont know if you would call this co-dominant genes or something along those lines?
>>take it for what it is just my 2 cents but what ever you want to call it stripe, jungle, abberant, or whatever dont say it isnt something there is no true definition for...
>>thanks for you time and i would like to restate i was not trying to start a debate i was just was bored and wanted to share some photos of my geckos........Kirk
>>
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

it's all too much for my brain to handle right now so I'm gonna go have a cup of tea and hopefully that will clear up my muddled brain LOL
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I have never heard of this before. Thanks for the info. Do you plan on testing offspring with the striped tails by incubating at a lower temperature and seeing if you still get leos with striped bodies and striped tails, or if the offspring revert to jungle pattern? There is still a lot about genetics that we do not understand, but I do believe it is by breeders (like yourself and others here) sharing their experiences that we will have the best shot at gaining greater understanding

I have also heard there are "genetic recessive" stripes and "selectively bred jungle" stripes, do you think the temperature manipulated ones may be the latter variety?

P.S. Kirk, my intent was not to upset you, my impression has been that the widely accepted consensus definition of a stripe these days is striped body and striped tail, that's what I use, but I do see that not everyone agrees with that. In any case, this discussion has been interesting and enlightening. Thank you for sharing you experiences in working with this morph with us.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

http://www.leopardgecko.com/color.html

check out this link it may be insightful on this subject

just wanted to say its all good! im not affended or mad at anyone! im glad to see so many people chime in on this subject!
i guess one of the things we enjoy about leopards is the variations of color and pattern what ever it may be.....kirk

P.S. the dog below is dixie our english bulldog. i ran out of gecko pics to post so i thought i would share her with everyone lol

I have heard of temperature affecting color, but not of pattern. Your findings are interesting, if you can recall any sources besides your own experience that would be most welcomes, otherwise thanks for sharing your experiences.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

After a year in the hobby this is what I have come to accept as far as pattern morphs.

Aberrant = displays broken/irregular bands on either the body or tail.

Jungle = displays broken/irregular bands on both the body and tail.

Stripe = displays a well-defined stripe on both the body and tail.

I have loads of respect for you long-term breeders, and I believe that it should be you guys who come up with a ‘definition’ if anyone. But I think it would be hasty to start defining things that we don’t really understand. I would encourage everyone to keep stats on your breeding of aberrant/jungle/stripe and what is produced.

A quick note to kelli: I was lucky enough to get 1.2 jungle het. tremper albinos from Chris, they are amazing geckos! They came from a male banded albino X female Jungle. Does this mean I have some of your bloodlines in my collection? That would sure make my day!

DaveCable

That's so cool! Chris is an amazing person and he should be posting here, he knows more about the striped and jungle genetics than anyone! Actually though, you have Chris' bloodlines, not mine. The adult striped animals I have here (with the exception of a few from Robin and K & N) belong to Chris, I am just having the pleasure of working with them.

Hope you hatch some albino jungles next year, that would be exciting.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I agree, Chris is a great guy, and an excellent herper. I understand he used to post here frequently, but he must be busy with school and whatnot. I emailed him a few weeks ago and I still haven’t gotten a response. He must be on hiatus, which everyone is entitled to from time to time. If he has a new email please let me know. Maybe if we both pester him, we could convince him to come hang out at the forum more often.
And yes, my goal next year is to hatch out some amazing jungle albinos, I can’t wait.
Here I a picture of Peggy, she came from Albey. She has put on a lot of weight since the picture was taken, and she should produce some amazing babies.

Hi Kelli

These geckos are beautiful, WOW!!!!!

TLB

. . . . . . because it has the jungle tail - not banded.

Since stripes come from jungles - I would take that as a full true genetic stripe as well.

Anyway - I have been known to be wrong before . . .
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

I would agree with kelli also. I also feel the kind of stripe Ross is talking about is what is known as a bold stripe. So Kirk's 2 examples of stripes are good one is a regular stripe and the other is what is known as a bold stripe.
Barbara

Stripe seems to be a broad term kind of like hypo, super hypo, carrot tail, and tangerine. These terms seem to mean different things to a lot of people. To see some of these geckos called carrot tail to me me seems a huge stretch when there is such a little amount. And what some people call tangerines! Shouldn't a gecko have some tangerine color to be called a tangerine? Hypo and super hypo is not clearly defined either.
Oh well. I guess it can't all be as clear cut as albino!
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two
My Geckos

Apologies to anyone I have offended, including Kirk. I thought it was pretty universally accepted at this time that a true stripe must have a striped body and tail. While a number of those most experienced with breeding stripes do believe this, I have learned to my surprise that others also very experienced in breeding stripes do differ on this issue. I have learned that others, including those experienced in breeding stripes, were also very surprised to learn some of these breeders did not share this definition, and so I hope this discussion (I had no idea it would be so controversial) has been informative and rewarding to everyone. I certainly don't consider myself the arbiter of definitions on what is and what is not a stripe when there are such divergent opinions among experienced breeders, I just did not realize that it was controversial, and was repeating the definition I had heard from several experienced breeders in this area. I would not have posted what I did at all had I realized that opinions varied so much on this issue, but hopefully the result of that mistake has been informative, enjoyable, and enlightening for most of us. I know I have learned quite a bit and appreciate everyone who took the time to share their experiences and opinions in this discussion with civility and respect.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

starting to show some hypo traits

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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

http://www.electricminds.org/venice/conf/view_attachment.js.vs?cc=2&conf=10&msg=132551

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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

produced by Jim Lewis

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My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.10 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Go to the link on my signature. There you will find pics of patternless, blizzard, tremper albino, and RW albino.
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two
My Geckos

Hi

Wow!! your female patternless looks so huge, health and beautiful.

TLB

She is approaching 40 grams at about 7 months old. My male is at 48 grams. They have grown faster than any of the other gecks I have. They definately eat very well!
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You can never have just one gecko. Actually it is almost impossible to have two
My Geckos

Hi

Who knows, maybe these two will go for the length and weight record at this rate and you can great a giant strain yourself.

You are so lucky.

Take Care, TLB

As for all the discussion about what is and what isn't a stripe......

To me a stripe MUST have a striped body and a striped tail. Any gecko with a striped or broken patterned body but a ringed tail would be an aberrant, and a gecko with a striped or broken patterned body would be a jungle.

As for the genetics, I never stated that Stripe x Jungle won't make stripes, or for that matter that Jungle x Jungle won't make stripes. I was just quoting the LGM, where Ron stated that banded was dominant over jungle and jungle over stripe. I don't see this as saying that you cant hatch a stripe from two banded geckos just that your chances are much reduced. Being a computer geek at heart, I like to have everything cut and dry ... you know all binary 0's and 1's unfortunately in this case nothing is written in stone.

Just like everyone else, I don't mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, come across rude, or force my opinions on anyone. And all that I have said above is from my personal experience and may just be flukes

For the person looking for pictures of morphs, all that we ask is that our name be attached to the above images and if they are to be used on a web page provide a link to our site, and please email us the URL of the site you are creating.

Matt.
www.HQReptiles.com