Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am posting for anyone that still has questions about or is interested in the crazy notion of raising and maintaining dragons without the use of UVB lighting. Let me start with a direct quote from the book Desert Lizards by Randall Gray,Krieger publishing 2003.

"There is no conclusive evidence as to whether full spectrum bulbs are actually beneficial to the health of captive lizards or how much ultraviolet light is necessary. Although some bulbs generate many times the uv light output as their competitors', it is not known whether this difference is significant to the lizards physiological or psychological well being. The value of artificial full spectrum bulbs is unknown, but including them in your setup is probably not harmful. However, many herpetoculturists have successfully raised and bred desert lizards without full spectrum lighting and only supplementing with vitamin d3(Montanucci 1997)."

The reference is from the Bulletin of the Chicago Herpetological Society. Randall Grey is a wildlife biologist that has been keeping reptiles for 40 years and has been focusing on Uromastyx and Chuckwallas for the last 6 years. Not that this makes him more qualified than anyone else on the subject, just want to provide credentials for the author of the paragraph.
Moving on...I have been asked to provide a detailed feeding and supplementing regimine for dragons not raised under uvb lighting. There is no one specific way to do it. Many breeders have different schedules to provide there reptiles with dietary d3, the key is to make sure you are providing it. Rep-cal with d3 contains the highest amount of vit d3 of any supplement on the market that I'm aware of. This is not necessarily a good thing. If over-supplementation resulting in toxicity were to occur, it would likely occur with this product. Although, I know breeders that have used it quite liberally for many years without any problems.

One breeder I know uses this product with the following schedule to raise dragons:
Dust one feeding of crix (out of 3) a day with rep-cal. Salads get no supplemental calcium.

Miner-all I contains much less d3 per kilo than rep-cal, about 4400 I.U's / kilo. This seems to be a safe level for daily liberal usage. Meaning that crixs and salads can be lightly dusted daily without any worries.

When I used this product, I dusted one crix feeding(out of 2) per day and lightly dusted veggies (offered fresh in the morning and late afternoon)

I now use t-rex dragon dusts daily. They get dusted lightly on all food items offered.

All these methods work for raising dragons without artificial uv lighting.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
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Full spectrum bulbs are useless, but they aren't the same as UVB bulbs. Does this article refer only to full spectrum bulbs, or to UVB producing bulbs as well?
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He's talking about artificial bulbs that are marketed as producing uvb light. The qoute is from the book I referenced, not an article. The qoute form the book referenced an paper that I included in my post. I am well aware that full spectrum does not necessarily mean the bulb contains uvb.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

>>He's talking about artificial bulbs that are marketed as producing uvb light. The qoute is from the book I referenced, not an article. The qoute form the book referenced an paper that I included in my post. I am well aware that full spectrum does not necessarily mean the bulb contains uvb.
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Azteclizard.com
>>Email Me

I still didn't see anywhere it mentioned UVB in the post. Please advise. Thanks!
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Rob

Rob,
I think it is pretty clear that by mentioning vit. d3 in the last sentance that the author must be talking about commercial bulbs that contain uvb wavelengths. Cinsidering that I'm not sure whether you truly do not beleive that that is what hes is refering to or whether you just want to continue debating, I will offer you this. In the previous paragragh he says this " For the last 20 years, herpetoculturists have been using full specrum bulbs to provide ultraviolet light to enhance colors,synthesize vit. d3 and promote normal behavior....In addition, the claims made regarding benefit to reptiles are often not substantiated." The next page contains a table comparing the uva and uvb content of 8 bulbs that the author refers to as full spectrum. Included are bulbs like repta sun, reptisun 5.0, and reptile D light. Aside from this, I happen to know that the author is one of those herpetoculturists that has had success with just d3 supplementing he refers to in the original paragraph I quoted. I think he uses the term full spectrum because he is an old school breeder. It was a popular way to refer to uvb producing bulbs. I think you probably understand that.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Bill,

First and foremost I don't ask a question to continue a debate. I ask a question because I don't understand what someone has said. In this case it was simply knowing wording means everything with this kind of stuff.

Secondly, no I didn't understand the "Old School" term of UVB. I've had a snake for 6 mos. and two dragons for 3 months. Old school to me is yesterday.

Notice the first part of my post which you seem to have completely ignored. Here, I'll repeat it. "With all due respect." is how my question started.

Is it that you think you aren't due any respect? That's a personal issue I'd be glad to help you with if you need to talk about it.

Or tell me how to word the question in a more unoffending manner and the next time I ask you to clarify something I don't understand I'll try my best not to offend or disrespect you.
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Rob

I feel like my post will just make matters worse. I apologize for some of it and understand it's hard to know what someone's thinking when you can't see expressions.

Honestly, though, I was only trying to be perfectly clear with your words and I do respect your knowledge and experience. That's all I should have said in my prev. post.
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Rob

Rob,
There was no harm meant and no harm done. I know what you mean about it being hard to understand through words. I do admit that often times I am defensive and possibly offensive on this forum. I apologize for misunderstanding your words.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

What age of dragons do you use the suppliment with D3 routine? If this is for younger dragons, how do you suppliment with adult dragons?

Since I have been using the t-rex formulas, I lightly dust all food items(except the pellets) even for adults. I use the veggie growth formula for babies and juvis, veggie maintanance formula for adults, and the insect dust for both.
If you are using miner-all, you can lightly dust daily with it. If you are using rep-cal it is probably wiser to cut back to a few times a week.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Not proved to be beneficial?

www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-55-page-1.html
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms