Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hope this doesn't spark the kind of exchanges I see all over this forum, but I'm extremely vexed by the furor over hybrids in reptile breeding. Please flame me and not each other if what I express is wrong or not popular with you.

I was looking for quite a few weeks for a snake to reintroduce myself to reptile keeping, and finally decided on a spotted california king. I chose this particular snake because of its unique pattern which seemed to add a certain charm. As the owner of this snake, I wanted it to be something that my friends and family might not have seen before ( they are even more naive than I !!). The fact that it looked like a newly paved road with fresh white passing lane stripes down the middle just made me laugh !! "Turnpike" is a wonderful addition to the family.

Apparently I didn't look long and hard enough, though, because no sooner had I purchased it, when I found some ads for some hybrid snakes. I still LOVE my Cal King, but even more, I was excited to think that some time next summer I would have the chance to purchase one of these hybrid beauties.

Then I found this forum........and the guilt has racked my every concious thought since.

Yes, I'm a newbie, but I'm not a dummy. All considerations of "right" and "wrong" aside.......I simply loved the unique and fascinating visual impact of almost every hybrid I saw. I was still innocent of the shame I apparently should have felt...........being so charmed by these "freaks of nature" (as I've seen some in here call them).

Silly me........I thought these were intended to be kept as pets by snake lovers.

Apparently, I'm the guy willing to pay a higher price for a unique snake, in a free market, existing in the capitalistic society that I love..............now I find that some purist snake breeders and lovers think I'm satan himself.

If I do buy one of these hybrids..........can anyone put my mind at ease and explain to me in simple terms why anyone would be so fervently against this practice ?? I really want to understand the issue without the emotion and name calling. Am I just seeing two "market forces" trying to compete for my heart and mind (and dollar), or is there something fundamentally wrong with breeding hybrid animals ?? I have a purebred golden retriever, but I've seen some really sweet looking mutts too. I've seen the disdain some purebred breeders have for non purebred dogs........is this the same thing I'm seeing here, or is it a real issue that threatens wild snake populations ??

Don't get fooled by the posts on this forum.

The people who are pro hybrids don't post much here anymore.

Rainer,

It was your hybrids that I saw that started me looking into them as a future aquisition !!! Fantastic snakes.

I was really hoping to understand if there is a substantive issue here or if it was mostly sour grapes or something stinkier.....

I'll be calling you before next years hatching season, so save me something special !!!

You should have heard Rick when I mentioned that I saw some really neat hybrids as I was pulling the trigger on buying a snake from him !!! I'm not sure if he secretly has reservations about hybrids himself, or he was a little miffed that I might change my mind about the deal !!!

You were both very nice to me, and I thank both of you for your patience.

Newby,BOTH sides NEED you! New blood is what fuels this engine that is captive breeding. It is YOUR time and dollar that all the established keepers are vying for,not each others! As further domestication occurs(inevitable)some breeders try and keep their lines "pure" as its these MORPHS that command the highest initial price.Once produced,anyone can do anything with them if they buy them,its a free market.What "purists"dont like is "hybridizers"that breed across lines to get "NEW" morphs...which automatically taint the waters(and the prices)of uncharted territory.While I think we can all agree that its their right to do anything they want with their animals,it does make for a slippery slope when dealing with non-established breeders(which is what you will be if you decide to breed).
I believe that there are LOTS of NICE looking hybrids out there and there will be more on the way.In an effort to produce the best looking animals there is no doubt that hybridizing is likely the quickest/cheapest way to do it.But for each success there is a failure which more times than not the "purist"breeders have to pay for more than the "hybridizers".
Examples:Well there has just been several "firsts"in morph production--"white" grayband(leucistic/hypo??)and a "albino"pueblan milk. If it werent for hybridizers there would be no ""around these morphs.Further, the LUCKY guys that bred them could make a small fortune(or never have to buy another snake again,lol)selling "pure"morphs to those of us that want them.With the very real possibility that a hybrid ruthveniXcampbelli passed along the albino gene unknowingly to sire this offspring,there will be critics/skeptics until the morph is PROVED(and many times this is too late to recoup losses suffered).
Example:Tony D.brought up the arguement of the LA pine(RARE)and I give you the case of "temperalis".LA pines are rare and many are hybridized with other pines to increase profits.That is not to say even the original breeder didnt sell it as a hybrid,just that there is NO CONTROL out there and if a animal changes hands several times the "story"or the "hybrid"could be lost in a moment of weakness,ignorance or spite.With "temporalis",if further study reveals each of say 2-3 "locales" as actual,VIABLE subspecies(say TEMPORALIS and DIODATA) then they will certainly become ENDANGERED SPECIES overnite.Seriously.If that could(not that it WILL)happen, what good has ANYONES work with these be if some attempt has not been made to study "pure"lines??
I think there are enough people in the hobby/business now that there CAN be 2 sides but I always try and think about the FUTURE.I dont believe that we can re-patriate anywhere with captive specimens of any kind but I DO believe that captive breeding of truely "pure" lines can eliminate the need for further collection in some cases.Further, I think it a duty to leave SOMETHING for the next generation to study.I think there are many GOOD reasons (even scientific ones with new DNA research)to create hybrids.But I think of this alot like say a grocery store......some want organic food, some want good and cheap. Either way, all you can hope is to get what you paid for.Sorry for the length, but you did ask for it,lol.Jeff

Thanks you for a very reasonable post. I agree that the hybrids and Morph are very pleasing to the eyes, however, I will remain a purist to the end.
Sincerely,
Paul Bollinger

I have to agree. That is easily one of the fairest, most middle-of-the-road posts I have ever seen on the forum. And I have been here for quite a while (I am sure bluerosy remembers me).
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to reply with what seems to be a very even handed explanation. I suppose I can, as a non breeding hobbyist, conclude that this is really an issue best left to the educated and established breeder.

Perhaps for the average person, we can continue to enjoy whatever snakes appear on the market, since we are less concerned with the genetic history of the snake and more concerned with the issues of feeding, docility, looks and health.

I have two follow up concerns though:

1) You guys that make a living (or at least some extra $$ and whatever else you derive, i.e. pleasure, interest, etc.) should be careful in what you say in these forums that might affect the hearts and minds of the average consumer that does not fully understand or care about the issue, just as we rookies should be careful in what we choose to believe in reading these forums. (taking bluerosy's advice in a previous post?)

2) Why in the world would anyone introduce a captive bred snake into the wild on purpose ?? Is that not illegal ?? I think if anyone might be considered "immoral" it would be the guy that does this.

Thoughts ??

As far as why so many flames?? Well, I think this an important enough tool to test and expand my and others thinking.I have been known to be passionately w..w..wrong.See I said it,lol. Differing opinions/an arguement is a good thing for those who use it correctly. Often either absorbed newbies or hi-horse breeders get into it without any attempt at middle ground.All this amounts to, as you can suspect,is a bunch of asses hanging out!
As far as releases....well, there are some people that think because they release something INSTEAD of killing it they are doing a good thing.I think we are lucky that the problem isnt more rampant but outside our tropical states I dont think we have much to fear of mongrel swarms quite yet. If you want snakes in your backyard either build a pond to attract them or move....

In regards to your concerns,

1. A lot of what you read in these forums you should take to heart. I agree that you should be careful of what you choose to accept as fact, but That works on both sides of the railroad. Keep in mind that Bluerosy is most probably a Morph or Hybrid owner therefore his/her advice to you will reflect as such.

2. I don't know if it is illegal to release snakes into the wild but honestly there is no way of enforcing such a law. The only way to fight this is by instilling it in the minds of Reptile keepers that it is wrong.

"Just because you can does not mean you should."

Sincerely,
Paul Bollinger

:I don't know if it is illegal to release snakes into the wild but honestly there is no way of enforcing such a law. The only way to fight this is by instilling it in the minds of Reptile keepers that it is wrong.

Disagree and not just because it is fun. We all agree that records need to be kept. This is simply an issue of record keeping. In the chemical industry there is the concept of cradle to grave documentation. It distills down to this you start off with X amount on hand you use 1/2X and purchase 2X you better have 2.5X on hand. Putting that to breeders and wholesalers, if you buy/produce 200 corns you should be able to produce documents supporting the sale of these. If you purchase an animal you keep its bill of sale and document its release to another owner through another bill of sale. If it dies document that via proper disposal through a vet. You aren't supposed to throw dead animals in the garbage anyway. This really isn't any different than the efforts of established stock producers of other domestic animals. The data kept on cattle in mind boggling and here if a farmer makes $50 after raising a steer for a full year he's doing pretty good! I have little sympathy for those who are really doing quite well breeding snake, relative to other stock producers, and can't keep records. Not to say who the regulator agency should be in a given state but in VA the Department of Ag follows such thing and have extended their reach into the larger reptile operations most notably Rare Earth in Richmond. In any case here is an opportunity for us all to educate every potential owner and initiate an ethic that currently doesn't really exist. Good thread.

Where to start...? First of all, it is safe to say that as long as it is legal to keep snakes in captivity, hybrids will be around. I can deal with that. Many anti-hybridists claim that if the hybrid snakes are released into the wild, they will decimate native species or pollute the wild populations in the area. While this is, in theory, a possibility, I don't believe it is the real motivation behind their feelings. For me, at least, the "fear" is centered in the possibility of obtaining a misrepresented hybrid animal. I have no problem with WELL IDENTIFIED hybrids, I just don't want to own any. I believe others may feel the same.
While there are many honest breeders out there who properly label their animals and keep excellent breeding records, I have seen enough people selling animals they've produced while having know idea what the background is to send chills up my spine. I commend Bluerosie, Larbyhunnylamb (sp?), and others like them for honestly representing their animals. Also, a note in favor of hybridization: ease of reproduction, fertility rates, loci of recessive genes, etc. add to our understanding of the evolutionary relationships of closely related species.
I think the lesson here is that all breeders (hybridists and locality breeders alike) should represent their animals as fully as possible and KEEP RECORDS. Everyone, myself included, needs to be more dilligent about this if our hobby is to survive. Our fighting attitude should instead be focused on protecting ourselves from groups like the HSUS who seek to destroy us. Remember, to each his own, as long as he lables! lol Hope this helps. Sorry for any mistakes...very tired.
-Cole

Thanks Cole. good post.

We assume you do realize that the unique coloration is NOT due to hybridization, but to the fact that they do occur with that pattern in the wild.

Also, with reference to your purebred dogs versus mutts...that's what most of us would consider the hybrids to be. And we certainly would not pay a premium price for a "mutt." Least I wouldn't!

I'm not trying to discourage you from owning any particular reptile. They can make wonderful pets, and if you see one you like, go ahead and buy it if you can afford it and it will make you happy.

Yes, I do realize that my kings pattern is due to the hard work and selective breeding of "purebred" kings by the guy I bought it from (Rick at Renegade Reptiles).

The mutt analogy works on me as far as dogs........I like purebred dogs more than most mutts I have met, because dogs behavior and owner interaction is at a higher level than snakes IMHO. I don't see it the same way with snakes though, as I have seen some hybrids that really tripped my trigger in an aesthetic way. The idea that some hybrid crosses, say a king and a corn, might also have other advantages to a snake owner (less nippy perhaps) also become a plus as to considering owning one.

I guess my only concern was that in buying a hybrid I might be supporting some dark group of evil necromancers steadily spoiling our earths reptile populations (if you believe some of the posts here !!).

Thanks

...mutt or Labrador, either is still a canis domesticus and the animal's genotype has not been altered. Genetics aren't compromised by crossing breeds as they are with actual species (ex. wolf/dog hybrids.) - Jennifer

I am not agianst hybrids at all. Where did we get hundreds of "breeds" of dogs and cats? What about Mules? The "pureist" need to get a grip and take off the sheets...
But there are non-hybrid spotted Cal. Kings out there....

Here is a picture of one of the two identical male spotted cal. kings that I have. Their parents were 100% pure 100% nice banded animals... these two boys just wanted to be differnt I guess...

"Breeds" of dogs equal races in other terms. They are all the same species so to speak. Do you consider interracial marriages to produce hybrids or people of different colors to be different subspecies? Correct me if I am wrong, but is this analogy just not applicable? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

why could you care less what other people think?I have an arizina mountain king-an albino ruthven and bought several months ago a hybrid milk.I couldnt care less who likes it and who doesnt.
Live for yourself not others if it bothers you than just dont tell anyone heehee but again who cares what others think.Be your own person.
Bianca