Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 2 4 year old sulcatas who are still relatively small. I mean, yes, they have grown from the small 2 inch babys I got into 6 inch torts, but this seems like relatively small growth when i looked at pictures of Teddy. He seems to have grown much faster than mine are. I was wondering if there might be a problem with them or if others have had this problem. Comments?
Thanks,
Grape

I wouldn't worry about it as long as they're healthy. There's
no right or wrong growth rate, it's individual. There are many
healthy tortoises that grow fast and some very slow growers
that turned out to be extremely unhealthy. Teddy was not fed
Mazuri while he was small, but now gets it about 1-2 times
a week. His diet is no different than most torts here. I think
a difference between Teddy and most of the other torts I read
about here, is that his basking temperature availablility is
much higher than most people want to offer their tortoises the
opportunity to use. He has chosen to bask at high temps since
he was small but of course always has ample room. He also gets
more exercise I think than most other tortoises do because he
had more space as a youngster and now than many people can provide,
plus our frequent and long walks together!
So if people want to point at diet or overfeeding or natural vs.
"unnatural" feeding or whatever theories they insist on clinging
to though they've been proven wrong by numerous examples, that's
up to them. I'm just pointing out the true differences between
Teddy and what I hear people saying they're doing with theirs.

He doesn't seem big to me until I go to pick him up! Of course
his turds are over 6 inches long each, maybe you would be
grateful your torts were small after cleaning up 5 of THOSE
monsters. lol! He's just tortzilla. niki

The understanding that tortoises should be fed a natural diet is not a "theory." It has been proven to be superior and healthy for the animals over many years of study. People who feed them like they were prize pigs at the fair are the ones clinging to outdated (and dangerous) ways of thinking. Overfed, fast-growing tortoise won't win any ribbons at the fair for their fast growth, but they WILL have health problems down the road. It just takes a long time to manifest itself because of their slow metabolism.

But you can stuff your oinker with junk food all you want to, I guess.

study that has proven this diet is a success.

Thanks in advance
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Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

"Natural" is a question of perspective and context. What I mean by natural, is simply that the animal is fed food items that would fall into the category of things it eats in the wild. Let's look at a cow for instance. A cow grazing on grasses and weeds in a pasture is eating a natural diet because cows are grazers. Does it matter what species of grass the cow is feeding on? Not really. Cows are grazers and feed naturally on grasses of many kinds. To say that it is not eating a natural diet just because the species of grass it is eating now is not what it's ancestors ate seems too nitpicky to me. Now, most cattle ranchers feed those same cows on grain when it is close to time to slaughter and sell the meat because it makes them fat very fast. Dry grain is NOT a natural food for cows because they would never eat it in the wild. That is an example of natural vs. unatural food.

With most arid tortoises, their natural diet in the wild is grasses and green leafy weeds and the leaves and blossoms of shrubs and vines. In other words, they are grazers and leaf clippers. The closest thing to a truly natural diet you can give them in captivity is weeds that grow wildly, grasses, and blossoms from shrubs and vines. The next step down would be feeding them vegetables and green leafy greens from the store. Some people say that store-bought food is not really natural because it is not exactly the same botanical species that are found in the animal's home terrain. True, the types of vegies you get in a store isn't exactly what they would eat in the wild, but it comes close. Did you know that many types of greens and vegetables in the store are closely related to wild plants you may see growing here or in Africa or in the Medeterranean? Dandelions and sow thistle are related to lettuce, botanically speaking.

What tortoises do NOT eat in the wild is soybeans, or any kind of cooked or human-prepared pellets. That is what is meant by "unnatural" foods. These food items contain too much protein and not enough fiber. A very unhealthy combination. Desert type tortoises have highly specialized digestive systems that are made for plants and only plants.

Like I said earlier, it may take years for the health disaster to show up, and that is why it is hard to show the results of prepared foods on the health of tortoise in studies. Pyramiding is well known and is thought by most tortoise experts to mainly be the result of too much protein and not enough calcium. Human-made foods are high in protein and most contain elements which can block calcium absorbtion. What many people don't know is that pyramiding is only the "tip of the iceberg." When it occurs, there is much more damage that you cannot see in the internal organs of the animal. This rarely occurs on animals that are fed naturally and given supplemental calcium. It does not occur at all in wild specimens.

Pyramiding may not usually occur in wild populations, but saying it never happens is a sweeping generalization you might not want to make. If you look at the June 2002 issue of Reptiles magazine, on p. 44 there is a photo of a group of wild redfoots that show obvious pyramiding. It's noted in the accompanying article (p. 46) that the pyramiding may possibly be due to oxalic acid in the indigenous cactus.

Just wanted to point out that there are instances in the wild where a tortoise population may survive, but still be malnourished to some extent. Whether their life expectancy may be shorter than that of a population that has access to better food is another matter.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

There is no doubt that pyramiding in tortoises occurs in the wild. Some think there is a genetic propensity for this trait where it occurs... which could be true to an extent but I haven't seen the proposal that even in animals that are found in the wild that it could not be a nutritional/environmental factor.
Drought and displacement for what ever reason can force a species out of an 'ideal' environment even in the wild.
Ed

Sohni, I have a habit of answering points as I see them. I then read you said the same thing. Sorry. I agree totally.
Ed

You will notice that those redfoots were dropped off on a very dry desert type island. This tells you 2 things... that they are very adaptable and that another cause of the pyramiding could be the lack of hydration/humidity.
Ed

Part of the problem is that we do not know what many species of tortoises eat in the wild.
There's a good study on the Leopard tortoises diet that has recently been published but not many more species than that.
As far as the soy goes... cite me some references that pertain to reptiles (i'm making it easy for you) that prove whatever.
The majority of most prepared diets is grain and grain byproducts.
I've had the opportunity to watch 2 desert type herbivors forage for food. One was a Chuckwalla on a desert island and the other was a CDT. What caught my attention was that the chuck (late summer, all the plants dead and dried) ate the dried flowers(Seeds) of the plants it encountered and all the tracks (100s) followed the same pattern. That was about 7 years ago. The CDT that I found this summer was doing the same thing. Now can you see a relationship as to why this grain type diet might be working?
Ed

You spent time following lizards around on a desert island? That explains a lot. Say hi to Ginger and Mary Anne for me, will you Gilligan? I had the hots for Mary Anne when I was a kid.

The desert tortoise was eating sunflower seeds? Uh huh. Okay. What plants were you smoking on that island?

The nutritional content of grasses varies considerably from species to species whether they look the same or not. Just because dry grain or soy beans don't look like "natural" tortoise foods doesn't mean that they don't contribute nutritionally to a balanced tortoise diet(whatever that is).

In my humble opinion it is the nutritional content of the diet we feed our tortoises that is more important than the "natural" appearance.
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Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

Who said anything about "appearances?" I never mentioned appearances. It is only the nutritional content of the food that matters, and whether it can be digested and absorbed or not. Natural foods are better in both departments than canned crappola or petrified pellets.

I don't need so-called "scientific proof" of the benefits of feeding as natural a diet as possible. I have millions of years of evolution on my side. If you think some pet food company who knows diddly squat about tortoises and just wants to make a quick buck knows more than mother nature, that is your prerogative.