Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I figured I'd show off a couple of photos of these neat animals on the ratsnake forum before I shipped them off to a friend for display cages in his house for his little girl.

Albino emory ratsnake here. Even if these guys become as common as albino cornsnakes, they'll still make me drool. These are in my top 3 morphs of all of them that exist.

KJ

KJUN Snakehaven

Chocolate Emory ratsnake here. Still pretty rare, very neat, and still variable. Each generation is seemingto be getting darker from selective breeding. I hope this turns out to be some type of definite hypermelanism in these guys.

KJ

KJUN Snakehaven

Albino Chocolate Emory ratsnake here. Looks good in the photo, but the snake looks almost fake in real person. There is some type of "fluorescent pink" in the back ground that the camera doesn't show off very well. Those that have seen this snake know what I mean.

As far as I know, this is the only one that has been produced.

KJ

KJUN Snakehaven

South Texas Reverse Striped Emory ratsnake here. It is genetic and VERY nice looking in my eyes...

KJUN Snakehaven

KJ, I have a pair of the reverse-striped also. Those are cool snakes. I have 2.2 Brazos Island rats too. I still call both races E. guttata meahllmorum, though, and I know what you mean about going crazy with what to call them. When did you start using E. emoryi? Is there a new reference I should be looking at?

You also showed a pic of a Chocolate Emory's Rat and an albino, Chocolate emoryi. Those are definately fine animals. We should talk sometime. More later....Terry.

>>KJ, I have a pair of the reverse-striped also.

What bloodline? I've got the above bloodline, some from Freer (not as neat, unproven, and not a project I plan to keep, but still great looking), and some Brazos Islands that are almost reverse striped, I think.

> I have 2.2 Brazos Island rats too.

I've got 5.2 adults and 0.2 CB03....lol. What a screwed-up ratio, huh?

> When did you start using E. emoryi?

Early 1990's....lol.

> Is there a new reference I should be looking at?

Depends on who you believe. I go with Elaphe emoryi (no subspecies, although the meahllmorum vs emoryi difference does exist, but the change is too gradual IMO to mean a true subspecific grouping), Elaphe guttata slowenskii (Kisatchie cornsnake), and Elaphe guttata guttata (Cornsnake). I based that on my interpretation of the available literature and unpublished data for a report that Vaughan, Dixon, et al are currently trying to complete. That is almost word-for-word out of their accumulation of the data, except that I think they are still recognizing the meahllmorum/emoryi subspecific split. Other mDNA research recently has indicated that this split is not a true one. I don't like mDNA (except for mine....lol - love you and your DNA, Mom!) research, but I think they might be right on that call (saying there are now subspecies of E. emoryi) this time.

Sorry I babbled. That paragraph isn't very coherent, but I'm sure you can figure it out. I hope.

>> Those are definately fine animals.

Thanks. Don produced those, actually. I'm just priveleged enough to own them now.... orthey own me. One way or the other. The albino Chocolate has owned me since the first time I saw it on Don's table 3 years ago. It has only gotten better with age. I wish the camera could catch the actual colorations. One of these days, I will just have to put it on display at a show. I won't do that until a couple more get produced, though!

KJ

The pair of reverse-striped are '03 CB from Don just this fall, along with 1.2 Brazos Is. from '03. All I had going in was one adult male Brazos that I like a lot. Actually it was the Brazos that got me interested and I picked up the reverse-striped pair just to see what those were like. They seem a lot like the Brazos so far.

I think you're right on the subspecies. I like a northern and a southern Great Plains rat. The ones I have definately have some differences from the northern (emoryi) form. I also think that the Colorado form (intermontana) should rate a subspecies. It is even more different and I love working with these guys. The intermontana will be a classic too, imho. Let us know if you hear about Vaughan, Dixon, et al. publishing. Looks like I'm going to have to switch back to E. emoryi again.

Keep me in mind if you get any more of those albino chocolates. That's an awesome animal. I'd like to stay up to date on that project. Don't feel shy about posting more pictures of it, LOL. Take care....

TC.

>>The pair of reverse-striped are '03 CB from Don just this fall, along with 1.2 Brazos Is. from '03.

Cool. I got the parents to both of those groups now. The reverse striped I posted is the father to your CB03 hatchlings. That's just an FYI. Do youstill reember the cup numbers on the Brazos you got from him?

> All I had going in was one adult male Brazos that I like a lot. Actually it was the Brazos that got me interested and I picked up the reverse-striped pair just to see what those were like. They seem a lot like the Brazos so far.

THere are MANY simularities. Coloration will differ a LOT once they reach adulthood, though. I've got some Freer ones, from Don, that spit out some that look like they could come from the reverse striped or Brazos line, too. I'm keeping the female to breed to the reverse striped ones, but getting rid of the father and the babies. Wel,, I should say got rid of most of those. They are neat, but I don't 3 bloodlines that look about the same as an end result. The stripeds, at least, are gentic. The Brazos are hit-and-miss. The Freer are an unknown. Go figure.

>>I think you're right on the subspecies. I like a northern and a southern Great Plains rat. The ones I have definately have some differences from the northern (emoryi) form.

Yeah, butthe "intergrade" zone is half of Texas....lol.

>> I also think that the Colorado form (intermontana) should rate a subspecies.

I agree, but the genetic tests have all said otherwise. I don't put as much faith in it as most people due because I'm aware of the limitations, especially of mDNA, but it is still a good indicator. I have a theory about why they aren't grouped as a separate subspecies, though: variability. Those guys occur in semi-isolated pockets a valley habitat. Catch them in one valley, and they look VERY different. Catch them in a nother calley, and they look like ones from Kansas. Catch them in another, and they look halkfway between each. That type of pattern means they are REAL variable, but not another subspecies unless you give each "isolated" group their own subspecific status even though there probably is SOME minor gene flow among most of them.

All of them, in my limited experience, see to stay smaller than the meahllmorum variety, but not THAT much smaller than many of the emoryi locality. Smaller, yea, but nothing to write home about in some cases. Still, size is frequently not enough to warrant a subspecific classifiaction in snakes.

>> The intermontana will be a classic too, imho.

Do you have some of those, too?

>> Let us know if you hear about Vaughan, Dixon, et al. publishing.

I converse with her on this every so often. They are extremely nice. I brought a bunch of my snakes to them to get bleed for their study. I ended up bleeding them myself since they were worried about hurting my pets....lol. (If anyone is curious, I've done it thousands of times on research animals. Heart sticks are pretty much harmless to snakes if you know what you are doing.

>>Keep me in mind if you get any more of those albino chocolates. That's an awesome animal. I'd like to stay up to date on that project. Don't feel shy about posting more pictures of it, LOL. Take care....

If I get a hatchling this year (knock on wood....I've got a bunch of double hets, etc.), that's what needs to be posted. This one looks VERY neat as a hatchling.

Next year I'll make the first crosses to get a hypo chocolate down the road and hopefully a hypo striped (using the Mitchel line). I've got an normal het for chocolate and Boyd Hypo here, but I've sold her. I don't care about that project until I prove or disapprove the heridity of the Boyd hypo first.

KJ

The cup numbers were, QX615 for the male and one female, and QM665 for the other female.

Here's a pic of my adult male that I got in 2002 from a third party...

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Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe schrencki, dione, bimaculata, taeniura, mandarina, conspicillata, porphyracea, situla, emoryi, and Lampropeltis zonata and calligaster

>>The cup numbers were, QX615 for the male and one female, and QM665 for the other female.

When I get images of the adults that produced those 2 snakes, I'll email them to you. It won't be tomorrow (lol), but it should be over the next couple of months.

Did your adult male come from GR or CB? Or is someone else working with these, too?

KJ

Thanks. It didn't come from either, but another that just had the one snake.

>>THere are MANY simularities. Coloration will differ a LOT once they reach adulthood, though. I've got some Freer ones, from Don, that spit out some that look like they could come from the reverse striped or Brazos line, too. I'm keeping the female to breed to the reverse striped ones, but getting rid of the father and the babies. Wel,, I should say got rid of most of those. They are neat, but I don't 3 bloodlines that look about the same as an end result. The stripeds, at least, are gentic. The Brazos are hit-and-miss. The Freer are an unknown. Go figure.

I'm glad there's some superficial difference bt. the r/s and Brazos at adulthood. I'd like to keep the Brazos as a separate locality and not cross with other localities. Even though the r/s is a locality, I believe Don said, they're probably a lot like other southerns and can be crossed w/other locales w/o noticeable differences. Too bad the origin of the Freer line isn't known.

You said the Brazos are hit-and-miss. Do you mean for the target pattern, the h-shaped blotches? Or, do you mean for the striped pattern? I've been more interested in the first pattern, so far. If the striped comes up, that would be a different goal, if I pursued that. I like the Brazos for a number of reasons in the original snake; pattern, behavior, ecology, hardiness, size, coloration, location, etc.

More later....TC.

>>I'm glad there's some superficial difference bt. the r/s and Brazos at adulthood.

Coloration is VERY different. No doubt about it. Only the emoryi around Freer/Hebbronville are that black on silvery-grey coloration. The ones near Hebbronville are better than the Freer IMO.

> Even though the r/s is a locality, I believe Don said, they're probably a lot like other southerns and can be crossed w/other locales w/o noticeable differences.

I wonder if there is some very unique form of emoryi in Mexico and the Brazos Islands are the intergrade form with meahllmorum and the Mexico form. I wish I could get a locale pair from a couple hundred miles south of the Rio Grande.

> Too bad the origin of the Freer line isn't known.

The origin is known. Both parents were WC's from "north of Freer." I know the where this USUALLY means, but I haven't had the opportunity to verify this with the original collector yet. What isn't known is if the Freer stripeds are genetic, not genetic, or just a temperature mistake during incubation.

>>You said the Brazos are hit-and-miss. Do you mean for the target pattern, the h-shaped blotches? Or, do you mean for the striped pattern?

I mean for anything. Some have more ventral pattern than the norm, some have PERFECT square blotches, some have H-blotches, some only have a couple of H-blotches, ome have the blotches spilt into an almost stripe, etc. They are so variable that there is no way to predict what a clutch will spit out yet.

> I've been more interested in the first pattern, so far.

Me, too.

> location, etc.

That's my biggest attraction...
KJ

>>I wonder if there is some very unique form of emoryi in Mexico and the Brazos Islands are the intergrade form with meahllmorum and the Mexico form. I wish I could get a locale pair from a couple hundred miles south of the Rio Grande.
>>

I would like that too, but I'll bet they're a lot like the meahllmorum form. Maybe someday we'll see some from Mexico.

>>> Too bad the origin of the Freer line isn't known.
>>
>>The origin is known. Both parents were WC's from "north of Freer." I know the where this USUALLY means, but I haven't had the opportunity to verify this with the original collector yet. What isn't known is if the Freer stripeds are genetic, not genetic, or just a temperature mistake during incubation.
>>

Ok, I was confused on that.

>>>>You said the Brazos are hit-and-miss. Do you mean for the target pattern, the h-shaped blotches? Or, do you mean for the striped pattern?
>>
>>I mean for anything. Some have more ventral pattern than the norm, some have PERFECT square blotches, some have H-blotches, some only have a couple of H-blotches, ome have the blotches spilt into an almost stripe, etc. They are so variable that there is no way to predict what a clutch will spit out yet.
>>
>>> I've been more interested in the first pattern, so far.
>>
>>Me, too.
>>
>>> location, etc.
>>
>>That's my biggest attraction...
>>KJ

Yeah, I heard from Gus since I wrote that. He said my male wasn't like the best Brazos. I guess we'll just have to breed them and see what comes forth

TC.

1.
>>>>I think you're right on the subspecies. I like a northern and a southern Great Plains rat. The ones I have definately have some differences from the northern (emoryi) form.
>>
>>Yeah, butthe "intergrade" zone is half of Texas....lol.
>>

Well, that's true. Maybe we should just call them variations then, i.e., E. emoryi (var:meahllmorum).

2.
>>>> I also think that the Colorado form (intermontana) should rate a subspecies.
>>
>>I agree, but the genetic tests have all said otherwise. I don't put as much faith in it as most people due because I'm aware of the limitations, especially of mDNA, but it is still a good indicator. I have a theory about why they aren't grouped as a separate subspecies, though: variability. Those guys occur in semi-isolated pockets a valley habitat. Catch them in one valley, and they look VERY different. Catch them in a nother calley, and they look like ones from Kansas. Catch them in another, and they look halkfway between each. That type of pattern means they are REAL variable, but not another subspecies unless you give each "isolated" group their own subspecific status even though there probably is SOME minor gene flow among most of them.
>>
>>All of them, in my limited experience, see to stay smaller than the meahllmorum variety, but not THAT much smaller than many of the emoryi locality. Smaller, yea, but nothing to write home about in some cases. Still, size is frequently not enough to warrant a subspecific classifiaction in snakes.
>>
>>>> The intermontana will be a classic too, imho.
>>
>>Do you have some of those, too?
>>

I do have a two yr. old pair, that I got from Tim, in CA. He bred them from a w/c pair from the Green River Valley in w. CO. These are locality animals too. I really like this form in addition to the southerns because of the differences in color, pattern, size, shape, behavior, etc. These guys are really hardy too, in a different way than the 'meahllmorum'. They can stand cooler temps w/o regurging, and are hardier in brumation. Other physical differences, besides the small size, include the stocky shape, and the small clutches of rather lg. eggs. I'm not sure they've been studied enough, and hopefully we'll find more molecular differences with more work on this form, (grin), and maybe they'll be recognized as a subspecies some day. For now I'll just keep them as a pure locale.

Thanks for the ideas and the new information for me on their habitat. I appreciate learning all I can on this form and hope to make a trip to their habitat some day to see them in the wild.

TC

>>1.
>>Well, that's true. Maybe we should just call them variations then, i.e., E. emoryi (var:meahllmorum).

That's how I did it on my webpage.

>>2.
>>I do have a two yr. old pair, that I got from Tim, in CA. He bred them from a w/c pair from the Green River Valley in w. CO. These are locality animals too. I really like this form in addition to the southerns because of the differences in color, pattern, size, shape, behavior, etc.

With the CO bust a while back and with the stringent laws CO has had since 1985 or so, i've been scared to get into ones with locality data. I only want animals that predate 1985 (and all of those seem to be non-locale by now, but they are almost all definitely from the same part of CO). However, is someone has some legal ones with the necessary permitting from while they could be exported, I'd kill for some of those!

> Other physical differences, besides the small size, include the stocky shape, and the small clutches of rather lg. eggs.

They are stockier, but ome of the ones I got from Don seemed to have staied emoryi-thin for him, too. The stockier appearance may be a real difference, but more obvious in captivity than in the wild. I don't know, nor can I accurately guess. The clutch size seems typical for an emoryi emoryi of the same total length, though. Much smaller than meahllmorum, but not unusual for emoryi.

> I'm not sure they've been studied enough, and hopefully we'll find more molecular differences with more work on this form, (grin), and maybe they'll be recognized as a subspecies some day. For now I'll just keep them as a pure locale.

Smebody would have to come up with the money to go get a bunch of samples from wild animals. CB ones are useless in those types of studies, and the currently preservedspecimens are all almost done under conditions where the genetic material isn't usable.

I agree with you, though.

>>Thanks for the ideas and the new information for me on their habitat. I appreciate learning all I can on this form and hope to make a trip to their habitat some day to see them in the wild.

Yeah, me, too. BUT, that is kinda far north for someone like me to head in this lifetime.

KJ

LOL..it's kinda far south and west for me right now, but once we move to AZ it'll be north too. I'm going to have to do some more research on the ones I've got to find out their exact ancestry, but they are very interesting snakes. I love the fact that they are short and stout and have such a faded appearance. More later on that....

TC

>>>>Keep me in mind if you get any more of those albino chocolates. That's an awesome animal. I'd like to stay up to date on that project. Don't feel shy about posting more pictures of it, LOL. Take care....
>>
>>If I get a hatchling this year (knock on wood....I've got a bunch of double hets, etc.), that's what needs to be posted. This one looks VERY neat as a hatchling.
>>
>>Next year I'll make the first crosses to get a hypo chocolate down the road and hopefully a hypo striped (using the Mitchel line). I've got an normal het for chocolate and Boyd Hypo here, but I've sold her. I don't care about that project until I prove or disapprove the heridity of the Boyd hypo first.
>>
>>KJ

I take it the Mitchel Line is a hypo Emory's Rat. I haven't looked at hypos in a long time. You'd have an awesome collection of Great Plains Ratsnakes if you had an albino/chocolate, a hypo/chocolate, hypo/striped, and all the locality forms. I think you said you had Brazos Island Rats, Reverse-striped Emory's, "Intermontana" Emory's, and probably a bunch of "northern" Emory's. With all the various corns you have, that's a lot of ratsnakes!!

I'd love to see the babies when they come out. I hope you can produce some more albino/chocolates next summer. There's some interesting genetics there. I think a hypo/chocolate morph would be interesting too. Good luck with those.

TC

>>I take it the Mitchel Line is a hypo Emory's Rat.

Supposedly. Boyd doesn't remember who he got them from. They check out pure in the hands, but the head is pretty stocky looking. I'd love to find the original creator before I try reproducing them.

> With all the various corns you have, that's a lot of ratsnakes!!

...and a lot of ratsnake poop.

>>I think a hypo/chocolate morph would be interesting too. Good luck with those.

Yeah, i'm hoping for an animal with the coloration of a hypo and the higher blotch count of the cocolates (each dorsal blotch is usually split in half along the spine). That would be my hope, anyway.

Still, as Don has shown, these double homozygous are SLOW to create in emoryi ratsnakes. Once the first good male is created, we'll be home free, though!

KJ