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hey all what do you all think of these reticulated pythons.? I have question about these animals. Are these Kayuadi reticulated pythons, or another dwarf form, or simple the ordinary P. reticulatus.? year comming more pics but i cant post multi pics..

Best Regards
Jesper

another.?

and another.?

Im going to say somthing real crazy here. According to the paper wich identified Jampea retics as a subspecies and several people that I have spoken to, the Kayuadi animals and the Jampea animals are Identical, thus they would both be considered Python reticulatus jampeanus. I will also agree from the subjects I have kept they are very simular to the point of being alike. Both species have the same coloration and size, both animals have the same basic temperment. Look at a good map for yourself, you may see that these islands almost touch. I must warn you however that WC dwarfs do not often make good captives, I have had several and they can come with more than a few headaches.

I do not in fact think Jampea's should be classed seperatley. . I think that all indonesian retics are getting smaller. Kamron at Bushmaster has said that the bali retics that people call dwarfs are not dwarfs but are actually breeding at a smaller size because of if they don't in a sense because of the large population on Bali the chances of them getting killed before the reach "normal" breeding size are high. So they are breeding at smaller sizes. The same holds true on many of the other locals includind sumatra. Peter Harlow had a paper in which he studied Tics being brought into skinning staions he notice that the females there are breeding at a smaller size aorund 9' 1/2 ft to 10. Its just an adaption being made. Jampea and Kayudi are not exactly as heavily populated as the other indo islands but, i think the same holds true there. Ambons anyother heavily populated island will breed much smaller to. These locals are not as dramatic as the jampeas and the Kayudis but, it only proves that this is happening elsewhere as well. So, I really dont think it wise move to reclassify them unless their is some other distinct morphological difference. I dont think Jampeas are breaking off completly as a different species but, rather just following what the other indo retics are doing as well. Another thing Id like to get off my chest Dwarf-Burmese for years people have drove for them. Now all of a sudden, some people (u know who) claim they have come upon a dwarf species that from my understanding had been discovered on the mainland in SE Asia. Come on now. Then to make the claim they are ture dwarfs without any serious feild study? Maybe its the fact im a bio major but, look im suprised that anyone with a head on their shoulders would buy into that. Ive had female burms breed at 6' but the people who own their offspring have them all around 10' within 18 months. Besides if this was a legite claim Bob Clark would of been all over it. Sorry, for my rant and sorry for the spelling and grammar but when i get goin I get going

P-Monster
SCNewEngland

It's an extremely convoluted and sort of creepy story, but Bob Clark was interested in buying the dwarf burms at some point. I can email you a link to the whole mess, which is on a different site.
The only thing that gives them legitimacy to me is that I heard they bred at 3.5 feet. If that's true, then that's pretty dwarf.
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Is he still going to buy them? Or was just going to at one time? I'd like to see the link to the story if you could email it to me too. BrianSmithReptiles@hotmail.com

Thanks

>>It's an extremely convoluted and sort of creepy story, but Bob Clark was interested in buying the dwarf burms at some point. I can email you a link to the whole mess, which is on a different site.
>>The only thing that gives them legitimacy to me is that I heard they bred at 3.5 feet. If that's true, then that's pretty dwarf.
>>-----
>>Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
>>Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?
-----
"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Hi.

In addition to the differences in size, color, and pattern, Jampea retics have other differences from P. reticulatus reticulatus according to Auliya, Mausfeld, Schmitz, and Bohme 2002.

P. reticulatus jampeanus -

Ventral Scale Counts: 290 - 301
Midbody Scales: 64 - 68
Distinctly enlarged anterior prefrontals and one row of posterior prefrontals

P. reticulatus reticulatus -

Ventral Scale Counts: 304 - 325
Midbody Scales: 68 - 78
Anterior prefrontals just slightly longer than wide and two rows of posterior prefrontals

It's easy to understand your doubts since all that anybody talks about is the size difference. But when we get down to the scales it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

Bill

Thanks for the info. I haven't read that paper yet. However, I think we can all agree on one thing. It is extremely rash to change the taxa around when because of the civil unrest in indo not many studies have been going on other Retic locals. Im willing to bet there are a few other locals out their with other morphological differences in particular the localities of Halmhera, the islands off of Sulwaesi and especially Ambon. I plan to work with one of those locals soon. Im especially interested in the Masakar Giant.

P-Monster
SCNewEngland

I personaly disagree, I think it has taken way too long to start reclassifing them. As there are diffrences in each locale it would not supprise me to hear that most locales are no longer the exact same species. I think the reason that Jampea and Seleyar retics got as much attention is because the diffrences are so contrasting. As for other locales such as Bali I belive that they also should be investigated further as well as the other locales, it is true that they may exceed 16ft and just dont get a chance on such a populated island, but they do merit some investigation. Unfortunetly Retics as a whole are mostly ignored by herpetologists. I am just waiting for funding to see if there is indeed super dwarf on the island of Kalatoa, or maybe some other unkown races in the sundas. Prehapse I can ID them as P. Reticulatus DeBordicus??? or maybe not.

Because people only believe what they have heard many times others go unheard. I have a friend that told me about a 20ft bali yellow head retic. I knew they weren't a dwarf just a smaller local population. My male is currently 10 1/2ft at 6yrs old although i know for a fact from his last owner that he was fed sparingly in order to keep his size down. My female is 6ft and growing like a weed. I am expecting approx 16-20ft out of her. We will see how big she gets. I'm tempeted not to breed her next year and see what size she will grow to. If breeding didn't slow them down I would breed her for sure, but i'd like to know the truth in size. I know one animal isn't a good rep for the entire species but I feel it would give me a good idea. I find this real interesting as I too have looked over Jampea's as well as kayaudi's and find them very close in looks and temperment. We will see in the future what the truth really is.
John

Hi, your explaination of the decreasing breeding size of wild retics is very interesting and seems logical. But, I also beleive in "Nature vs. Nurture".
Geographical isolation has exposed different environmental stress factors on the different inusular populations. These populations must adapt or become extinct. Over many generations at some point these "adaptations" may become genetic. This process takes a very long time. If these animals are not reaching their full growth potiental due to human population, that is an environmental factor, not genetic. I'm not a biologist, but I would not be suprised if future studies document many morphological differences.
It will take some time for human influences to affect the genetic growth potiential of p. reticulatus in Indonesia.
This is just my view. I don't know if I made any sense.
Thanks,
Phil