Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I just found my female 5" redfoot dead! She and her spouse share a large enclosure with proper bedding, lighting, temp, vitamins etc. I have had them just short of a year. I soaked them both 2 nights ago and fed them all the usuals, all sorts of leafy greens, sweet potato, apple, and small amount of banana. All was well. Went to check on them tonight and she had her legs and head extended and was very bloated. Her rectum appeared to be prolapsed and her mouth appeared funny. When I picked her up, bloody fluid dripped out of her mouth. They have been vet checked and wormed and got a clean bill of health. She was good weight and a good eater. I took out the bedding, washed and bleached the enclosure and put all new bedding in, threw out the water bowl and dish. Am worried about the male now although he seems fine and is eating and active. Any ideas or suggestions? Also, are they better in pairs or should he be ok alone? I feel just terrible and even worse for him! Thanks in advance.

I'm really sorry for your loss. That sounds like some kind
of organ failure, heart or kidney. Doesn't sound contagious.
I just have to ask what kind of bedding you're using? That's
the only suspicious item I can think of, and many proper ones
are very harmful. ((((((sorry))))))

Hi and thanks. Cypress mulch is what I have always used. No changes at all. K

I know that's a very popular bedding with this type of
tortoise, but it scares me and I wouldn't use it if I had
redfoots or any tortoise. If it was my baby I'd have him
on kenaf plant hemp bedding which can be misted if needed
without problem. niki

I'm not saying it was the bedding (but it could have been and
it has been a problem in the past for others) it just makes me
personally too nervous to use just like any other bark bedding.

Did you give her Mazuri by any chance?.... (*Tortoishead dodges punches from the angry crowd*)

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. The description you gave of the dead tortoise seems somewhat unusual. How long was the it dead before you discovered it? What you describe makes it seem as if it was dead a relatively long time. I have studied forensics, (in humans and animals) and bloating and prolapsed anus is a normal part of the decay process which can start in an hour after death, or several days, depending on the temperature. Gasses from bacteria feeding and releasing waste are what cause this. The bloody fluid dripping from the mouth seems odd to me, though, as does the suddeness of the death. I have seen many dead tortoises and don't recall ever seeing the fluids coming out unless it was dead at least a couple of days, and even then it was unusual. Fluids draining from the body would not be expected to occur for at least a day or two after death, if at all. You must have kept the enclosure VERY warm. What are the chances the tortoise was injured somehow? Perhaps dropped by someone and returned to the enclosure? The suddeness of the death would not suggest pathogens as the cause of demise.

Don't worry about the male being lonely. Tortoises are by nature solitary animals and it actually causes them stress to be around other tortoises, especially in an eclosed place. In the wild, they will always seek out their own territory and only come in contact with other tortoises to mate.

While it's true that a single tortoise does just fine it is well documented that certain tortoises (the RF being one of them) have a kind of social existance or do tend to 'hang' in groups.
Ed

Redfoots are one of those animals that do just great if you have only one. BUT they do even better when you have two or even three. Mine almost always sleep together even though there are plenty of hiding/sleeping sites throughout my yard.
Also, when they have been separated for awhile and then reintroduced, they spend a lot of time head bobbing and staring at each other. It almost seems like they are glad to see each other.

I said ALMOST seems like they are glad-------don't want to be accused of an anthropomorphism!

One has to wonder if they are really hanging together because of some sort of social need, or because many individuals discover prime feeding or basking areas.

Both I would say. Clearly, in the wild they cue in on the same feeding areas (fruiting or flowering trees) or the same shelters such as mammal burrows. In captivity though it seems to be more social.

Many animals behave somewhat differently in captivity than they do in the wild. It may be the limited amount of suitable sleeping quarters that causes some tortoises to sleep in the same hole/cave/igloo/whatever.

All five (at the time) of my desert torts often slept in the same dog igloo when I only had two igloos, but I think it had more to do with them prefering the location of that one than wanting to be together. When I put in two new igloos last summer in a sheltered spot, they both had a tortoise move into them and shun the family situation.

I have never had Redfoots and have never observed them in the wild. It may be that they are at least somewhat social. Who knows.

I guess you don't really sit and observe your tortoises very often do you?
I don't know if you can call it social interaction but there is definately a preferred interaction when it is made available.
Ed

I've said this time and again, I beleive that if you feed rancid Mazuri to your tortoise there stands a very good chance of killing your tortoise. That is why I stress keeping it dry until used and take away any uneaten portion when the tortoise walks away.
Ed

Seems too perilous to me, especailly at the high temperatures tortoises are kept at. A person can easily forget to take out the uneaten food. The tortoise can return to eat later and consume a nice pile of deadly bacteria. Yum.

considering that you think feeding the stuff will kill your animal anyway.
Ed

>>Don't worry about the male being lonely. Tortoises are by nature solitary animals and it actually causes them stress to be around other tortoises, especially in an eclosed place. In the wild, they will always seek out their own territory and only come in contact with other tortoises to mate.

I agree that most are solitary. It seems from a few field studies that Pancakes are generally found in groups within the same 'hide area'. Is this simply multiple numbers because of a good retreat? Or, does the fact that a male is generally found with a female(s) show a social tendency to increase reproductive success? Who knows... Mine seem to work in small herds. One will go for the food... then the rest will follow in a a flurry of activity. 10 minutes later and they are all gone until the next round of feeding.

Matt
-----
"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

I love pancakes and hope to have some someday. How many do you have?

Yeah, it is hard to tell how much of their hanging together is from genuine sociability and how much is just wanting to be around preferred hiding spots. They are dependant on certain rocky areas with crevices, and don't really have the freedom to roam around much or steer clear of others of their kind like other tortoises. Maybe they developed a social lifestyle from not having much choice.

>>I love pancakes and hope to have some someday. How many do you have?

Currently I have 29 (28 in house; one on loan). Not NEARLY enough!

>> Maybe they developed a social lifestyle from not having much choice.

I'm most inclined to believe that. But, are they actually social? Well, it will come down to different folks definitions of what they consider social.

Matt
-----
"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

I don't think it's really social but, as was mentioned in another post, they do seem to 'enjoy' or 'prefer' the company of another.
Ed

When you fed the apple did you remove the seeds? I seem to recall that this could be very bad.
Without a necropsy, it would be impossible to say what killed the girl.
I always suggest a necropsy be performed in the event you might be doing something that will eventually kill the others in your care. These are not always conclusive either but it must be done soon after death. Once it starts decomposing the necropsy is worthless. (not to mention nasty)
You can get good/cheap necropsies done at most county coroners office.
Ed

Apple seeds do contain cyanide, but in very, very small amounts.
-----
Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

Also, the seeds need to be abraded or broken before the cyanide becomes a factor.

Apple seeds do have a substance that releases a very tiny amount of cyanide when they are digested. Tortoises in all probability would not digest a seed that was still covered by the husk. The husk of a seed is designed by nature specifically for this reason. The seed would just pass through the digestive tract intact. Even if they were digested, the amount of toxin is so small they would have to eat a ridiculouis amount of seeds to get sick.

I used to raise an unusual type of bird called the Blue-Crowned Hanging parrot. Fruit and nectar feeders. They spent most of their time haning upside-down like bats, even sleeping like that. If I gave them an apple, they would quickly tear it apart and go straight for the seeds, eating them with obvious delight. Many birds will do this, and I believe they do it at least partially for parasite control.

Oh, I got it... Superfluous Information... that's it.
Ed
(I've waited 30 years to use that word and never had a need until now)

Ok Ed! What does "Superfluous" Mean, as I'm only learned to a high school leavel. (btw that is a joke about high school, but I realy don't know that word) Is it Ed lingo?

from the dictionary

1 a : exceeding what is sufficient or necessary : EXTRA b : not needed : UNNECESSARY
2 obsolete : marked by wastefulness : EXTRAVAGANT

Ed was just saying it is useless information for him

for covering my back door... that's exactly what I meant to say.
Ed

Superfluous is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? I was providing the anecdote for other people who might find it interesting. Others, perhaps more intelligent and less mentally constipated than yourself, were no doubt enthralled.