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Thick Black Borders...

carl3 Nov 07, 2003 11:08 AM

I love corns with thick,well-defined black borders around the blotches, regardless of what morph (miami, okeetee, ghost, etc)

Is anyone currently, OR has anyone in the past tried to breed this feature out over generations....OR is it like the yellow that appears to be of mysterious origins/mulitple genes.

Just curious since every once in a while someone posts a photo of a corn with thick borders BUT I rarely see them for sale or at shows like this. I also realize that it is hard to tell when they're young BUT if both parents have this feature...will it make a difference in the offsprings appearance? Or is it random?

Feel free to post pics of corns with the above feature.
(if you have them)
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"What two coins equal thirty cents and one of them is not a nickle?"

Replies (26)

Amanda E Nov 07, 2003 12:09 PM

Check out the Okeetee posted by Blazin in the Photo Contest Forum.

It's a beauty!

carl3 Nov 07, 2003 01:38 PM

n/p
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"It's DR. Evil....I didn't spend 8 frickin years in evil medical school for nothing!!"

Finnigan Nov 07, 2003 02:07 PM

I think the reason why you never see them for sale is because they take time to develop.

It is virtually impossible to tell if a young okeetee is going to have those nice, thick black borders.

They come out slowly over the first year of the snakes life. And most animals sold at shows are babies or juvies.

Just my guess.

BTW, I'm dying to know the answer to the riddle in your sig.

Joel
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3.6.3 Leopard Geckos (1.4.3 Albino)
~~25 Leo eggs cookin'~~
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 African Fat Tail Gecko
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.0 Blair's Phase Gray Banded Kingsnake

carl3 Nov 07, 2003 06:42 PM

Even given the fact that it takes time to develop, there has to be someone out there that has tried to bring out this feature over a few generations.

If breeding to exaggerate, highlight, or remove other certain features can be done, then I would think someone would have tried to do the same with the black borders.
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"It's DR. Evil....I didn't spend 8 frickin years in evil medical school for nothing!!"

Brainteaser
What two coins equal 30 cents and one of them is not a nickel?

Yasser Nov 07, 2003 08:00 PM

One of them is not a nickle right?
Well of course not! One of them is a quarter! The OTHER one is a nickle.
-Yasser
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DonSoderberg Nov 07, 2003 08:52 PM

As stated previously, the thick black borders are the result of much selective breeding. The caliber of these snakes has heretofore been rare given the relatively young industry of breeding "designer" corns.

In addition to the thick black borders, our goal to create the perfect Okeetee is the purist coloration possible. Not only the markings, but the ground colors of the Okeetee should be relatively free of the speckling/freckling of other colors if not completely devoid of the "clutter" of white or black speckles. I'm sure in the next two to three generations, we'll see these and other corn snake morphs develop into shockingly beautiful serpents.

I will be calling this line of Okeetees the Abbott line. We will be offering babies like the one pictured in 2004 for slightly more than we charge for the classic Okeetees. By 2005, we should be producing many of them.

We have other pictures of these thick bordered Okeetees in the photo gallery of our web site.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles
South Mountain Reptiles

khaman Nov 07, 2003 10:44 PM

Put me on the waiting list!

kathylove Nov 07, 2003 10:58 PM

n/p

Blazin Nov 08, 2003 12:24 AM

I purchased a keys marathon from you year before last. Let me know when you have some females like the one you posted. I need them to meet up with this guy! OH and there is not white on this guy or black speckling! The white you do see is a reflection from the flash!
Image

DonSoderberg Nov 08, 2003 12:07 PM

That is shocking. Man, you suk.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Like many things, evolution is going to change our standards of what is average Vs what is pretty. That snake is way out there. I'm jealous.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

flaskeeter Nov 08, 2003 07:44 AM

Don..... Is that Abbott line by any chance from Lee Abbott? I was fortunate enough to have met him at a show last summer and immediately fell head over heels for the spectacular okeetees he had there. I'm now the proud momma of a little boy from that gorgeous male of his. Lee is a great guy with some great snakes!

DonSoderberg Nov 08, 2003 12:11 PM

How could one ever take credit for an animal that awesome when someone else did all the work? When I complement Lee (great guy) about them every single time I see or speak to him, he shrugs it off as the culmination of breeding other people's Okeetees. Naturally, if we all took that stance, we'd have to go back to just a handful of folks originally responsible for ALL corns. Hence, Abbott gets the credit for this one that will bear his name on my web site. I say this because some of the folks he said he got his founding stock from don't have animals of this caliber in my opinion. As long as mine continue to produce progeny like these, I'll proudly continue to put Lee's name on them.

Many thanks to Lee.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Marcel Poots Nov 08, 2003 06:04 PM

Don,

As I highly value your opinion, what do you think of this one? This is a female from an Okeetee X Snow cross. I call her Okeetee because I think she looks quite Okeetee to me. But technically she is not an Okeetee from real Okeetee breeding.

Marcel
Image
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

DonSoderberg Nov 09, 2003 08:41 AM

Marcel:

As it is with everything, there are varying degrees of compliance with standards. I think you can get away with calling it an Okeetee, but do you want to? If you call that an Okeetee, you are essentially saying you think it satisfies the standard for one. While it does have rich colors and decent black margins, there are varying degrees of tan on the ground color and white stippling too. If you call it Okeetee, your customers may decide that your Okeetees are inferior.

I just wanted to give you thoughts about how calling it an Okeetee might negatively affect you. It's a beautiful snake and I think calling it the product of Okeetee X snow is adequate. The snake's appearance speaks for it no matter what you call it.

Beautiful snake. Kudos.
South Mountain Reptiles

Marcel Poots Nov 09, 2003 08:47 AM

I am glad I asked. I think Okeetee X Snow is the best way indeed. I did not know about the white speckling.. Very interesting to know. Thanks Don.

Marcel

>>Marcel:
>>
>>As it is with everything, there are varying degrees of compliance with standards. I think you can get away with calling it an Okeetee, but do you want to? If you call that an Okeetee, you are essentially saying you think it satisfies the standard for one. While it does have rich colors and decent black margins, there are varying degrees of tan on the ground color and white stippling too. If you call it Okeetee, your customers may decide that your Okeetees are inferior.
>>
>>I just wanted to give you thoughts about how calling it an Okeetee might negatively affect you. It's a beautiful snake and I think calling it the product of Okeetee X snow is adequate. The snake's appearance speaks for it no matter what you call it.
>>
>>Beautiful snake. Kudos.
>>South Mountain Reptiles
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

WK Nov 08, 2003 02:29 PM

Here’s one with some fairly nice black borders. The glare from the flash glazes over her pattern in some areas.

carl3 Nov 08, 2003 03:44 PM

That is one beauty of a snake. It looks like someone took a Sharpe marker and exaggerated the outlines..LOL

Where did you get it?

I absolutely LOVE this corn pattern/style. I hope that I can find a mate for my 03 female that has the start of big black borders (pic in post above).

Thanks for sharing your pic!
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"It's DR. Evil....I didn't spend 8 frickin years in evil medical school for nothing!!"

Brainteaser
What two coins equal 30 cents and one of them is not a nickel?

WK Nov 09, 2003 10:13 AM

I bought “Sharpie” from Lee Abbott as a hatchling in 2002. The father of this snake is an exceptional animal with nice color, thick black borders, and a very clean pattern. His offspring, more often than not, display these characteristics as well. Here is a picture of Lee’s male. The photo was taken by Bob Garby when we were checking out Lee’s animals at the 2002 NRBE.

Here is Sharpie as a hatchling. My opinion is that snakes do not really develop the thick black borders as they grow, but actually have them as hatchlings. What happens is that the colors within and around the borders gradually brighten and therefore make the borders more distinct. This is a poor photo, but if you look closely, you can see that the thick black borders are already discernable on this snake.

Here is the same snake as a yearling. The pattern around the borders has brightened considerably, making the borders much more noticeable. However, they are not thicker than they are in the hatchling photo above.

Here is another hatchling photo. This snake is about 4 sheds into its life and the black borders are already present. This snake’s borders are too thin, in my opinion, and it also is showing the longitudinal “ratsnake” striping that is another undesirable characteristic.

This picture shows the same snake as a yearling. You can see the borders are still thin and the striping is still present. Although a nice looking snake, it is not what I would call an exceptional Okeetee.

This last picture shows a road-killed cornsnake. The property bordering both sides of the road belongs to the Okeetee Hunt Club, so I think it’s fair to call this an Okeetee corn. You can see that it has nice borders, but not as thick and prominent as those on Lee’s male, or on the snake posted by Don S. There likely are snakes in this wild population that have thick black borders like Abbott's snakes, but they are not common. I grew up catching corns in southeastern South Carolina and there are other populations (other than Okeetee) of corns there in which these bold / thick borders are more commonly seen. Note that this wild Okeetee corn also shows some longitudinal striping.

Cheers,
WK

Blazin Nov 09, 2003 11:56 AM

Very nice snakes. Could you email me concerning the breeder who produced that snake. Thanks!

WK Nov 10, 2003 06:34 PM

I e-mailed you Abbott's number. You also, Sillygirl.

Regards,
WK

DonSoderberg Nov 09, 2003 02:34 PM

. . . for the wonderful pix and comments about Okeetee corns Vs Okeetee locality corns. I too have seen corns not from SC that are better than what most people expect in a GOOD Okeetee. While colorful, most of the corns I've seen from the Okeetee area lack the thick black borders. Some lack the color too. In fact, the first ones I saw back in the 70s were almost completely without borders. They were phenotipically some of the finest hypomelanistic corns I've ever seen. A friend of mine caught four of them along with some killer scarlet kings. Three of the four corns were classic hypomelanistic corns. Almost no black at all. Imagine if I'd promoted that line as Okeetees back then.

Suffice it to say I'm really glad you mentioned that not all locality snakes look like what we call Okeetees. I believe in the spirit of tradition we should name corns for a look and not a locality. I've said it before and it sometimes opens a can of worms with the locality purists, but when we don't have an appearance standard for a morph, it opens the door for less than honest breeders/catchers to get away with murder. They could literally take their ugliest $15.00 hatchlings and call them Okeetee locale animals. Now, they're $35.00 each. If the locality folks won this argument, there'd be no dispute short of DNA testing to thwart counterfiet critters. Unfortunately, greed has ruined many a market.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

WK Nov 10, 2003 06:29 PM

That’s interesting about the hypomelanistic animals coming out of Okeetee vicinity. I’ve not seen a wild corn that I would call truly hypomelanistic (having gray / purple coloration where black normally occurs in wild-type animals), but I’ve seen some with significant reduction in the amount of black pattern. Was the hypomelanistic gene currently being marketed in corns originally pulled out of the Okeetee population?

I agree with you about the “ultimate Okeetee” visualized by many people being extremely rare in the wild, even on the grounds of Okeetee Club. Rather, it is something that was created by herpetoculturists through selective breeding. I do think, however, that the majority of “raw material” used to create these stunning snakes comes mostly from coastal southeastern SC and coastal northern Georgia.

The locality issue as it pertains to the herp market is something that I do not completely understand. I do value “locality” animals, but only because their genetic makeup reflects adaptation to specific, unique environments. For example, I value a locality “Okeetee” corn because it was molded by the beautiful lowlands of Jasper County, SC and is therefore a living “snapshot”, if you will, of selective forces at play in that particular environment at that time and through history. From this you can see that “locality” snakes that are removed from their environment and bred for successive generations in captivity would no longer hold any relevance, for me, to any geographic locale because the locale (environment) is no longer influencing the snakes’ genetic makeup. I think most “locality” breeders in herpetoculture nowadays use locale names to designate snakes originating from a particular area that have a certain appearance. They are bred only to preserve this particular appearance and completely removed from any influence of selective pressures present in the locales from which they originated. That being said, I really see nothing wrong with “locality” breeding as it is practiced today in herpetoculture. However, it is not really different, genetically speaking, from selective breeding for “morphs”.

Those of you who think that Okeetee corns must adhere to a certain and narrow standard of appearance should read the following excerpt from Snakes and Snake Hunting by C. Kauffeld, the originator of Okeetee Hoopla:

On the Okeetee (Preserve), Corn Snakes are among the most numerous snakes and they grow to a greater size and greater beauty than any I have known from elsewhere. The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse grey with dark scarlet blotches, others – the prettiest – have rich orange ground color with vermillion blotches…It is my estimation the Corn Snake is not only the most beautiful nonpoisonous snake in the United States, but in the world as a whole.

All in all, I think people should just buy and keep corns that appeal to them and forget about this type being called this or that etc. If you like Okeetee corns with thick borders then seek out lines with these traits. If you’re like KJ and think the thick borders are ugly (which is bassackwards thinking, BTW ) then seek out snakes with weak and puny borders. It’ all good. LOL!

Cheers,
WK

DonSoderberg Nov 09, 2003 08:43 AM

If that doesn't scream "OKEETEE", I don't know what does. That could be the poster child for Okeetee corns. Awesome animal.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

WK Nov 09, 2003 10:18 AM

Thanks. This snake is very likely a sibling to the exceptional Okeetee you posted above. While my snake has nice color / pattern / borders, she does have some white stippling.

Regards,
WK

Sillygirl Nov 10, 2003 11:02 AM

If you ever produce more like that, PLEASE PLEASE put me on the list for one. That's exactly MY definition of an Okeetee. Seriously, I want one of those!!!!
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles
2.2.0 green tree frogs
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake "Popcorn"
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)Due to arrive very soon
2.4 Domestic house cats
1.0 Rottweiler
1.0 Husband (who loves all my critters too)

flaskeeter Nov 10, 2003 06:36 PM

Here's my little guy that I got from Lee. This picture was taken 3 months ago when he was about 4 months old. I believe he has the same father as your snake, WK. Lee told me he had clutches from 2 different males, one that he designated as "L" (my baby's dad) and one that he listed as "V". I agree with you that the thick black borders are already there. I believe that he may have some white stippling, but if he grows up to look like dad I'll be thrilled. It's great to see Lee getting some recognition for all the hard work he's done, and with Don getting into breeding the Abbott line we'll soon be seeing some truly awesome Okeetees!

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