Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have seen a few pics of patternless northern pines and even though they may not be something I would be interested in purchasing, I do think that they have a cool look to them.

What is the story on those? Anyone have any info? Are they pure, developed through captive breeding, hybrids, etc???

Interested to hear what everyone has to say!

Take care!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I'm under the impression that they were created by crossing to southerns.

>>I'm under the impression that they were created by crossing to southerns.

I agree. Anything "created" by Southern Reptiles, no defunst for all intents and purposes, should be taken with a grain of salt. Not everyone from Aribi is a horrible person, but some are pretty bad....lol.

KJ

>>>>I'm under the impression that they were created by crossing to southerns.
>>
>>I agree. Anything "created" by Southern Reptiles, no defunst for all intents and purposes, should be taken with a grain of salt. Not everyone from Aribi is a horrible person, but some are pretty bad....lol.
>>
>>KJ
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Billy,
K.J. is right,however,there was a line of pure northerns years ago that were patternless(well atleast very aberrant)from canada.I sent of for info and pics and got them.I wish I could have bought some of the snakes.I have never seen them for sale since and they were awesome.

I will try and post the pics they sent me.I think it was about(93 or 94).Way before southern had did anything with the pines.

shannon

.

there was an article on them w/pics back in '95 in Reptiles Magazine. They were similar in appearance to patternless Burmese...ie, kind of a light tan/off white ground color w/thin blotches along the dorsum. Unfortunately I threw out my old mags a few months back or I'd be able to provide the exact issue.

I'm no expert on the genetic end of this...But A snake I had (0.1 patternless Southern)went to Ernie Wagner up in Wash. state and became part of his breeding project back in 82.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Billy,

I knew a guy from New York who was a cop, and he had a line of Patternless Northern Pines from CANADA that he was working with. this was in about 1997. I talked to him briefly about these, and his friend advertised them for sale in a Canadian herp magazine as Patternless Northern Pines. I DON'T think that these are the same snakes as the ones being offered for sale now as Northern Pines, and frankly if K.J. says that the ones floating around down here (The lower 48) arent Patternles Northerns but are instead crosses, I would be inclined to believe him.

*Ciao*

Fred Albury

I've been trying to get to the bottom of this "patternless pine" thing for a while now. Here in Florida, you cannot sell p. m. mugitus unless they are amelanistic. The definition of amel according to Paul Moler of Florida F&W, whom I just recently spoke to, is "without pigment" with the proof being pink or red in the eye color. I did not bring up leucistic animals, but I believe a pure white leucistic would squeak by.

The reason I bring this up is that I see people selling these patternless pines with normal eye color at shows here in Florida. You had best not label these as "southern patternless pines", as southern/Florida is still mugitus in the eyes of F&W according to Moler. Patternless Florida pines do occur in the wild here in Florida. I have seen these myself. Paul is a herper in his own right, and interestingly enough considers the pines in the far western tip of the Florida panhandle to be lodingi/mugitus intergrades. These animals can be legitimately sold here in Florida, as they are not considered mugitus. I recently met a Florida breeder who calls his animals "red pines" or "red patternless pines", as he gets animals of either pattern out of the same clutch. This appears to be the way to legally market these animals at Florida shows. Leave off the "southern" label or you risk a citation and confiscation of your animals.

I got conflicting stories from the same guy at the show. When I asked "what am I looking at?" (as in what ssp.) He glanced up and changed his demeanor (to me anyway) from then on. One story had them as northern X southern, another as pure southern. I passed, and bought an albino from someone else.
:Mark

I appreciate all the info. Very sad to think that they or most of them may be the result of hybrids.

The one in the pic I saw was from Lemke. He was into pure pits, wasnt he?

Billy
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Genesis 1:1