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Clinton/Bush

Sobek Nov 07, 2003 10:56 PM

I have a few ?'s for ya..

Did you agree with the impeachment of Bill Clinton. He lied about "adult acts".

If so do you not think that Bush & co. should receive the same treatment? They mislead and lied to the public to justify WAR.

If not, what about their close financial ties to terrorist organizations?

Or their close financial ties to the companies who are making money off this war? From the companies who make toilet paper for the soldiers butts, to the ones jacking oil.

Or how about Bush and his Buddy Kent "Kenny Boy" Lay? Did we forget about Enron? From millions of dollars in campaign contributions, to Free enron Jet rides cross country.

His whole presidency was brought in on a scandal. We know ol' Jebb was looking out for his bro in 2000

Is that not ground enough to start the ball rolling?

This guy his not the fairy tail king you portray him to be.

This guys history is riddled with substance abuse, failed companies, fraud, He executed 152 people while Governor of Texas, 1st president to enter the white house a convicted criminal, Went AWOL during war time, Convicted drunk driver. Need I say more.?.?

Again I ask you if Bill was impeached for his lie that cost no lives, Should Bush & co not take a hike?

Just wondering

Replies (79)

ra_tzu Nov 07, 2003 11:05 PM

I don't know about most, but my portfolio was looking much better with Clinton around. So what if he got a strange blow , I love them, so does cokehead bush. Now every possible worst scenario has happened while bush is around, just like his dad's reign. Go ahead blame it on clinton and all the wrong steps he took that led to this.

FastEddie Nov 08, 2003 01:22 PM

Maybe you should blame yourself for your lousy portfolio. Clinton was an idiot.

Ed

sobek Nov 09, 2003 12:20 AM

Clinton Is far from an Idiot. That man has done more in his life time then most ever will.

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 12:19 PM

Like I said, Clinton is an idiot. I find it disturbing that anyone could hold an obvious crumb, like him, in such high regard. He didn't do ANYTHING to brag about. What is it about him that you see that could possibly make him so great in your eyes???????????????

Ed

steve.AC Nov 09, 2003 12:36 PM

What about when bush said something about the people in front of him being assholes, remember when he thought the mike was switched off, what does this say about bush.

steve

sobek Nov 09, 2003 12:56 PM

Bush is a stck up rich kid,. whos daddy got him in the white house. Alone Bush could not do anything. Well maybe get drunk and sniff a few lines..lolololol

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 01:21 PM

Just what I thought! I ask you to tell me what is so impressive about Clinton and You zero to say. The only thing you seem to be able to do is make misguided, sensational and fanatical negative comments about Bush. Do you have a fixation?

Ed

sobek Nov 09, 2003 02:26 PM

The only thing you seem to be able to do is make misguided, sensational and fanatical negative comments about "Clinton." Do you have a fixation?

rearfang Nov 09, 2003 05:34 PM

I have one positive thing to say about Clinton...He's out of office. One day I will say the same about Bush....Except Both men came up with some good one liners! (I'm easily amused...) Nice photos above though...and it is spelt RIDICULOUS guys (Hey....I got a word right!!!!)
Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rodmalm Nov 07, 2003 11:26 PM

I totally disagree.

First, there is no evidence that Bush lied. Just a bunch of accusations since the democrats are so desperate because of the way their party is falling apart.--and there is a presidential election coming up. What did Bush lie about? I haven't heard one democrat ever answer this question truthfully with anything to back it up.

Second, Clinton lied under oath to Congress and in a court of law while he was an attorney and thus an officer of the court. (Judging from your post, you probably don't remember that the court case was about sexual harassment and thus the questions the prosecuting attorney asked (and the judge approved) about his sex life were relevant). He also lied to the American public on television and to his family. The fact that he lied about sex is irrelevant as far as his impeachment. The fact that he lied under oath is not.

Those are very two very different things.

If Bush had lied under oath in a court of law or to congress about the war, then I would agree with you, he could be impeached. But that didn't happen.

I've really noticed lately that the Demcrats are scrambling to bash Bush. First it's the war...oops, gotta drop that because it is going to well...then it's about the economy...oops, gotta drop that because it is going to well...then, it's the war...oops, gotta drop that because it is going to well...etc., etc., etc.

Rodney

rodmalm Nov 07, 2003 11:33 PM

Texas law doesn't allow the Governor to stop exocutions. He had absolutely no power to stop it even if he wanted to.(and I don't see why any governor would want to second guess what the courts have decided anyway) Some states give their governors that power and some don't. Another irrelevant point on your part--or should I say, yet another false accusation that is easily disproved.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 08, 2003 01:29 PM

You'd think Bush was a murderer after reading sobek's post. I'm sure that I'd stand up and cheer for each and every loser that was executed, while he was governor, if I looked into the type of people they were. I guess some people identify more with losers than they do with successful people like Bush. It's sad, but true.

Ed

ra_tzu Nov 07, 2003 11:33 PM

Well hey everythings going to $hit cause someone got a blow job and lied. Yet everything is on the up and up cause someone wants more money and votes.

Funny, how someone earlier mentioned that clinton was a terrorists dream come true. Hey youd think 911 wouldve happened when he was in office.

rodmalm Nov 08, 2003 12:25 AM

When you think about it, 9/11 did kind of did happen when Clinton was in office, just like the recession we are coming out of now.

Everything takes time, nothing is instant. Look at the stock market. Every economist out there will tell you that it takes months to reflect what is happening in the economy. We knew 4 months before Bush took office (by the stock market) that the economy had been in trouble for about 6-7 months prior. It took 2 years for Ronald Reagan's tax cuts to make the economy take off--almost exactly the same time period for this economy to take off after Bush's tax cuts.

When Bush took office, the military wasn't instantly back to the level it was at before Clinton dismantled a lot of it. When Clinton took over, the military didn't instantly downsize. It was downsized over 8 long years.

To think that Clinton's actions couldn't have caused 9/11 just 10 short months after Bush was elected is very short sighted. Especially when you take into consideration how long it would have taken just to plan and train those involved in 9/11. That alone would take many months. Then you have to coordinate everyting, etc. Plus, Bush didn't take office as soon as he was elected, that takes time too which gives you less than 10 months to start with. I think you get the idea, at least I hope you do.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 08, 2003 01:34 PM

Yeah, your Clinton was a real super-hero!

Ed

pulatus Nov 08, 2003 04:26 PM

You can debate just what constitutes a lie - but in my opinion the evidence certainly suggests that the Bush team misrepresented the siuation. Here is something I had to write for another occasion that may make sense here too:

Did Saddam have anything to do with 9/11?

The administration has yet to offer any proof of an Iraqi connection to 9/11. There have been a couple defectors who claimed there was, and a couple captured prisoners. But thats about it. As we know, if the Administration could find any proof at all, they would be all over Fox News describing it in vivid detail. Here's a quote:

    "I do think this argument about terrorism is disingenuous," said James Steinberg, vice president and director of foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution, a nonpartisan public policy center in Washington. "This wasn't the place you had to confront Al Qaeda. They weren't there, and this is not what that war was about." Greg Miller, Los Angeles Times, 09 Sept, 2003.

The irony is, that with our invasion, Iraq appears to be becoming the center of terrorist activity, something it wasn't prior to the war.

Question: Did the US actually have any evidence for WMD as it claimed it did?

Apparently not. My assumption here is that if the US did have any information about Iraq's WMD they would have given it to the UN inspectors initially, and our own inspectors currently. Before our invasion Bush and the others: Rice, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Scofield, etc. all talked at length about Iraq's WMDs. But they couldn't share that information with UN weapons inspectors for "security reasons" - wink, wink. Now that those security issues are no longer a concern, we still can't find any WMDs - hmmmmm. Before the war we had clear evidence, after the war we, well darn it, it was here some where....

Question: Is the proof the Administration suggested it had prior to the war evidence of deception?

Lets see. First there were the aluminum tubes. The US said they look like tubes used to enrich uranium. So they went to their experts at Argon National Laboratory (or was it Oak Ridge?). Anyway - their experts said, no- these tubes are all wrong, they can't be used to enrich uranium. (This was from an interview with the very expert who analyzed the tubes for the government). But a few months later poor Colin Powell was sitting in front of the UN Security Council talking about these same tubes. I can't find the transcript but I recall the scientist said he was amazed and saddened by the obvious disingenuousness, which is a really hard way to spell "lie" Here's a quote from Bush prior to the war:

Saddam Hussein is determined to get his hands on a nuclear bomb. He is so determined that he has made repeated covert attempts to acquire high-specification aluminum tubes from 11 different countries, even after inspections resumed. - Colin Powell, Speech to the UN Security Council. [He is refering here to the same aluminum tubes that had already been described by our own experts as inappropriate for the enrichment of uranium....does this constitute a lie?]

Then there was the yellow cake from Niger. As we know now, the documents were forged, and even the Italian secret service detected this fact. But the US ignored this fact and mentioned the false reports repeatedly - even in Bush's State of the Union Address. Here's yet another reference:

"In an unusual step, the Bush administration this week admitted the President should not have accused Iraq of trying to obtain nuclear material from Niger in his State of the Union Address this year.  In the months leading up to the war with Iraq, President Bush and other senior members of the administration often pointed to Saddam Hussein's nuclear aspirations as a reason to preemptively strike the country.  Now the Administration is backpedaling on this claim and Democrats on Capitol Hill are now calling for an investigation."http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa060903_SOTU_investigationa.htm

And of course, this was just the half of a sad story. A former US ambassador to Africa (Joe Wilson) went to Niger to investigate the administration claim. He returned and published his findings in an editorial. His wife, a CIA operative, suddenly lost her career when she was outted by unknown sources within the administration. An investigation is on-going, but we have to ask ourselves, is this the kind of governement we want running things? Threatening family members because one has spoken out against the government seems a wee bit un-american, if you know what I mean.

Did the Administration's false informatio and assertions inform the legislature which then voted to support an Iraqi invasion?

I think I summerized my perspective above. But read the quote below. This is president Bush on the now famous aircraft carrier in front of the now famous banner that the Navy guys, no wait, the whitehouse produced, talking about Saddam and 9/11. Even though a connection between the 2 has never been shown to exist. You tell me - is our leader being sincere? Check it out....

The Battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on 11 September 2001, and still goes on.
That terrible morning, 19 evil men - the shock troops of a hateful ideology - gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions.
They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that 11 September would be the "beginning of the end of America".
By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world.
They have failed.

And just to recap- He refered to the Iraqi invasion as a war on terror, even though no significant connection has ever been made, and even though his actions may have produced more terrorists than ever existed. Later in the same speech aboard the same aircraft carrier and under the same banner, whose origin he lied about, President Bush said:

The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror.
We have removed an ally of al-Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding.

Again, even though no evidence for that has every surfaced. So is this a lie? As my daughter says, I stink so.

Finally - I want to re-emphasize- I examine these issues not because I want to attack President Bush. I hope he is more intelligent and insightful then I give him credit for (although this does seem like a long shot ). I hope he is right in his scenario planning, his environmental scanning, his systems analysis. But at the very least, I don't think he has been honest with us. This may be due to poor intelligence he has recieved. (pun intended) But this may also be due to an assumption that we just can't handle the truth...that we need his fabrications in order to support what only he and his advisors "know" to be true.

This country was built on a distrust of authority, a questioning of the status quo. The founders had the guts to stand up and ask tough questions. For us to do anything less is an abrogation of our heritage.

Joe

rodmalm Nov 08, 2003 05:19 PM

I must agree with you except...

Every intelligence agency in the world said the same thing as Bush, so if it was a lie, he would have had to know more than all of them. That is very unlikely since at least one of them (the CIA) advises him of situations! A lie, is only a lie, if the person telling it knows it is false-- and there is absolutely no evidence of that. You can't really argue about what is a lie and what is not. It either is a lie, or it is not, the definiton of a lie is very clear.

Congress, who also had of this information, totally backed him up until some liberals thought they had a shot at the white house. Why would everyone in congress back him up if they knew it was a lie? Some Republicans wouldn't have backed him up in order to avoid a scandal and some Democrats might have backed him to cause a scandal Some Republicans would back him just to back him and some Democrats would oppose him just to oppose him. You wouldn't have seen the amount of support he had if it was a lie.

If Bush is so stupid, as you imply, how was he able to get congess to agree and the UN to write resolution 1441? All without any evidence that there was wrong doing?

Even if Saddam wasn't linked directly to 9/11, Bush clearly stated that this is a war on terrorism--not just the terrorists that hit the U.S. I totally agree. We need to at least try to stop terrorism before it grows any more. Especially because of the increased danger due to new technologies that could be used by them. It is a good thing Saddam is gone, even if he wasn't linked to 9/11--he certainly was linked to some other terrorists.

Rodney

sobek Nov 09, 2003 12:49 AM

Congress, who also had of this information, totally backed him up until some liberals thought they had a shot at the white house.

It’s not only the left accusing Bush of lying. I’ve read many reports from die hard republicans stating they too were mislead. Yes Bush got the papers he needed signed. AMERICA WAS SCARED AS HELL!! If Bush said there were terrorist on the moon, we would have been shooting rockets that way. Bush used the FEAR 9/11 caused to justify war. Saddam was not the threat Bush or you make him out to be. Yes he was a nut, yes he killed people. Yes we gave him WMD to use on his own people. If going into Iraq was about the war on terror, Most of the 9/11 Hijackers were Saudis. WHY NOT INVADE THEM. Why you ask? 1 trillion in are bank, 1trillion in are stock market, and all that oil we been getting since WW2. That and the Bush family are in bed with the royal house of Saud. You want to find terrorist in the Middle East? Head south from IRAQ!!!

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 12:46 PM

Bush Sr had to kick Iraq out of Kuwait. Would you agree that Saddam TERRORIZED Kuwait? Of course you have no choice. So when Bush declared war on TERRORISM, Saddam was a perfect choice. Who has Saudi Arabia, AS A COUNTRY, invaded? The hijackers who were from Saudi Arabia certainly didn't represent their country. Using your own twisted logic (we're in bed with them) why would they want to financially cripple the country that they are making sooooo much money in????????????

Ed

PS Don't think that the US, with the help of the Saudi government, isn't actively pursuing known terrorists within that country today. Why would YOU know about it?

sobek Nov 09, 2003 02:28 PM

why would they want to financially cripple the country that they are making sooooo much money in????????????

THANK YOU!! THATS why Saudi Arabia is not being blasted with smart bombs... MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 08:11 PM

Are you upset that Bush should hasn't declared war on Saudi Arabia? Is Saudia Arabia a threat to that region? Do people with money bother you?

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:05 AM

>>Are you upset that Bush should hasn't declared war on Saudi Arabia?

NO I don't dig the fact that Bush & co. tried to hide the link between S.A. and 9/11, and that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, as Bush has "suggested" he did. He used that fear to peddle his war.

>>Is Saudi Arabia a threat to that region?

Yes! Again almost all the 9/11 hijackers were from S.A. It’s well known they have/do support terrorist. Why no action on them? Again 1 trillion in are banks, 1 trillion in are stock market, and all that oil we NEED!! If S.A. pulled out, our economy would be in a very big mess to say the least.

>>Do people with money bother you?

No. But the scum who step on people to get rich do.

Now please answer a few for me.

Do you still think Saddam was the "urgent" threat Bush & Co made him out to be? Keep in mind there have been no problems out of Iraq since the 1st Gulf War. You may say they denied U.N. inspectors, but hey they get denied from tons of places.

Are there not countries who pose more of a threat then Iraq did? Should we have moved on them instead?

Do you think it was right for Bush to play dress up and land on the big boat declaring an end to "mAjor combat"?

What do you consider "Major Combat"? Launching missiles from miles away, or having helicopters shot down every other day with RPK's, and being ambushed on patrol? Combats, Combat...

Whats your thoughts?.....

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 12:34 AM

"Do you still think Saddam was the "urgent" threat Bush & Co made him out to be? Keep in mind there have been no problems out of Iraq since the 1st Gulf War. You may say they denied U.N. inspectors, but hey they get denied from tons of places."

If Bush lied to the Socialist of the world in order to get Saddam, then HOORAY! Saddam was a wealthy terrorist like UBL, who vowed "death to America" one too many times for my liking. Getting Saddam was was urgent because he was the second step in Bush's war on terrorists.

"Are there not countries who pose more of a threat then Iraq did? Well let's see, have any countries, besides Iraq invaded other countries since Kuwait was invaded?"

"Should we have moved on them instead?" Who????????????

"Do you think it was right for Bush to play dress up and land on the big boat declaring an end to "mAjor combat"?"

Wow, don't you sound like a fanatic foaming at the mouth whenever you think of George Bush! To answer your silly question, I think it was great what he did. Good for him.

"What do you consider "Major Combat"? Launching missiles from miles away, or having helicopters shot down every other day with RPK's, and being ambushed on patrol? Combats, Combat..."

"Major Combat" was exactly what Bush was referring to. Marching into Baghdad and taking control was impressive Major Combat". The rebuilding process IS NOT "MAJOR COMBAT". HELLO sobek! I bet you'd be much happier if the US casualties were in the thousands, not the hundreds? You could be more sensational in your attempt to portray Bush as a villain.

"Whats your thoughts"

I think that you are extremely anti-American.

Ed

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 12:49 AM

There are 1,700 patrols a day in Iraq, and each patrol contains a number of personel. If we are only loosing 1 a day on average, with that many people on patrol, it is indeed an end to major combat.

I also heard another interesting statistic. It is more dangerous to be a police officer in the U.S. than to be a soldier in Iraq. That kind of puts it into perspective! A war being safer for our guys than being a police officer here!

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:00 AM

Good point Rodney. It's facts like these that anti-Americans here have no interest in. Although it's fun proving them wrong time and time again, they will never concede that Bush has performed exceptionally. Unfortunately, a bum like Clinton has more appeal to them. Go figure!

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 01:17 AM

>>I also heard another interesting statistic. It is more dangerous to be a police officer in the U.S. than to be a soldier in Iraq. That kind of puts it into perspective! A war being safer for our guys than being a police officer here!

YOu right it does. Sounds like we need to be taking care of are own problems.

Did you ever stop to think most of our officers are reservist? No of course you didn't. The ones left here are out numbered. That would make it dangerous.. Duh!!

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:29 PM

Hunting down terrorists IS OUR OWN PROBLEM. 9/11 was a wake up call.

Ed

Rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 03:49 PM

I agree, there is always room for improvement. Even here.

But why do you think that things are really dangerous here, as opposed to things are pretty safe over there? I was making the point that things are pretty safe over there, when you compare it to police work, to put things into perspective. You were making the point that things are very bad here too. I hear that kind of talk from a lot from liberals. Instead of seeing how sucessful this war is, you see that there is something that could be better here. Always the pessimists when it comes to this country.

Sounds like typical America hating to me.

Consider this. There are about 150,000 troops over there on average. (more during the active part of the war and less now). Assuming a life expectancy of 100 years and our troops being all different ages, 1,500 a year would die from old age alone! Now, take into consideration that most are men and men's current life expectancy is about 70 years, you can increase the 1,500 by 30% (100years-70years) to get 1,950 a year. Now consider that we are in an age of high tech warfare-you need to consider this because we have a lot of older tank drivers, helicopter pilots, etc. and fewer young infantry personnel than in wars that took place before this. I have seen a lot of people on TV that are in the war that are in the 30-50 year old age range. Yes, there are some young ones as well, (in the early 20's and such). I am trying to make the point that at an average age of 35 (1/2 the age of the 70 year life expectancy) you would expect to get about 2,000 a year dead from old age alone. (Also, consider that you won't find anyone over there that is less than 18 so the real age range of our troops is something like 18-55 years old.) I know that is somewhat fuzzy math, but it is fairly accurate.

So, comparing 2,000 dead a year from old age to the 400 dead so far, in many months, from a war also puts things into perspective a bit. Things are going great!

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 05:03 PM

Any chance sobek get's he is going to overeggagerate to dangerous state of things today in Iraq. If you read some of his earlier posts it's evident that the more American soldiers who die, the happier he is. Ironically, he's attempted to twist his habit of rushing to post the news of fresh kills into some bizarre kind of concern for our troops. The truth is, the more he hates Bush, the more he can't wait to take any bad news from Iraq to throw in our faces. What a guy!

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 05:06 PM

PS: "Anti-American", sadly, is an understatement!

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 01:03 AM

>>I bet you'd be much happier if the US casualties were in the thousands, not the hundreds? You could be more sensational in your attempt to portray Bush as a villain.

Why would you say something like that? Bush has been a villain.
BUt why would you say that? You don’t know anything about me, yet you make those accusations. That’s the Most CHILDISH thing I have read on this forum. Snake/Scott is that you?

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:36 PM

"Why would you say something like that? Bush has been a villain.
BUt why would you say that? You don’t know anything about me, yet you make those accusations. That’s the Most CHILDISH thing I have read on this forum."

I'll quote you from above: "Bush has been a villain".

Don't tell me I don't know anything about you. That pathetic statement speaks volumes about you. Ask the surviving victims and relatives the victims of 9/11 if Bush is a "villain". Your obvious lack of respect for yourself has brought you to the lowest of low. You bash Bush in his attempt to prevent another 9/11. There's no secret to what he's been up too, yet you grasp for straws with Bush's every move in the hope that you can make him look like a villain. How "childish" are you?

Ed

sobek Nov 09, 2003 12:34 AM

Well written Joe..

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 12:35 PM

Nobody has ever said that we invaded Irag BECAUSE IRAQ WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11. UBL blew it for Saddam, because 9/11 caused Bush to declare war on ALL terrorists. Bush is working down his list. Saddam happened to be the second highest profile terrorist on the list, and his history with the US and his violation of UN resolutions certainly didn't help his chances of survival. Why do you act like Bush thought Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

Ed

PS Bush was a WMD, ant you've failed to prove that we're won't find any others. (Not being able to prove a negative proves that YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO PROVE BUSH WRONG.)

sobek Nov 09, 2003 12:26 AM

I've really noticed lately that the Demcrats are scrambling to bash Bush. First it's the war...oops, gotta drop that because it is going to well...

You think this war is going well?

BUSh was told his info on Iraq was wrong. He ignored it, and pressed for war. Flip flopping his reasons for going in there as the lies came to light. In front of the world he told a LIE. So what bush was not under oath. A LIE is A LIE!!

The reason we went in there, and the reason we are there now are NOT the same reason.. Flip Flop, Flip Flop

rodmalm Nov 09, 2003 02:24 AM

Yes, I am absolutely amazed how well the war is going.

Let's see, first we have the fastest invasion by far in the history of warfare.

Second, we have extremely low collateral damage due to smart bombs and careful planning.

Third, we have an amazingly low casualty rate compared to any war of this size. (considering the death rate due to crime, in California for instance, is many times higher.) Democrats were predicting death rates anywhere from the 10s of thousands to as high as 75,000 and we have had what? around 400 total so far? Yeah, I think it is going great when have a very small fraction of what was predicted by the Bush haters. Vietnam was something like 47,000 deaths and we have less than one percent of that amount in 4 or 5 months, and democrats are trying to scare us that it is another Vietnam-LOL, Yeah, right! Sure, every casualty is sad, but who would have predicted it could be so low?

Almost no oil fires, one of our biggest fears due to environmental damage and the cost/time of putting them all out.

No attack on Israel and thus no retaliation by Israel.

About 70% of Iraqis are happy we are there and a lot of cities now have power (that hadn't had power in many years under Saddam)

What is going so wrong in your opinion? Everything that was feared didn't happen, absolutely nothing plus an amazingly low casualty rate to top it all off! I'm extremely happy with the war so far and support it 100% The only thing I am critical of about the war is our troops having to pay for things like travel, hospital food, etc. I think that is a disgrace and should be corrected pronto! But, most of those things were passed by congress years ago and I can't blame that on Bush. But I really hope he has the guts to try and fix it!

Again, Bush lied? By repeating what every intelligence agency around the world was saying then and most are still saying today that it was true?

Who told bush the info. wasn't true? If you were him, would you believe that one source or every intelligence agency on the planet except for Iraq's? Would you suspect it was disinformation when all your other info contradicted it? I certainly would.

A lie is only a lie if you know that what you are saying is false, there is no evidence that Bush knew what he was saying wasn't true. If you can prove that he knew it was a lie, then that is fine. So far no one has been able to do that. If you can't prove it, then you are basically lying because you have no idea that what you are saying is true. (I say basically a lie because if don't know for sure that what you are saying isn't true, it isn't necessarily a lie, but an accusation.- But, please don't represent it as fact when you can't prove it and no one else has been able to either!) I agree that he shouldn't lie, even if he isn't under oath, but there is no evidence he lied, so that is irrelevant.

By the way, I used to support Clinton. I didn't vote for him, but I thought he was an OK president until the Monica scandal. But after he was able to so easily go on television and shake his finger at America and say, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", that was it for me. I believed him at that point, but once he was proven a liar, I no longer trusted anything he said in the past or would say in the future--primarily because he was so convincing and lied to America so easily. I don't think Bush could lie to America that easily--just my opinion. Some people are good liars and some are not. (I am one person that is not a good liar and I gave it up many years ago! No reason to lie if you can never pull it off!)

Rodney

sobek Nov 09, 2003 02:35 PM

I don't think Bush could lie to America that easily

Thats a joke right? lol Yes he lied, and he is using the hell out of black markers to cover that lie up.

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 08:13 PM

Nobody could lie like Clinton! He is king of that category.

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:21 AM

lol mann you are give Bush no credit

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:38 PM

Bush gets the credit for preventing another 9/11. Clinton is recognized as a bum. Learn the difference!

Ed

crocodyle Nov 09, 2003 11:45 AM

But according to your post above, he didn't lie. You said we gave him WMD. That would suggest that they exist. So where is the lie Sobek? Flip flop, flip flop.

sobek Nov 09, 2003 02:48 PM

But according to your post above, he didn't lie. You said we gave him WMD. That would suggest that they exist. So where is the lie Sobek? Flip flop, flip flop.

Ok maybe you don’t get what I am saying, and u hear what you want. I'll break it down 1 more time for the slow ones. WE GAVE him WMD over 10 years ago. He USED those weapons. Get it? USED meaning they are not there. Gone.. BY By. Not the same ones we gave them 10 years ago. Just like Bush you FLIP FLOP the facts to meet your agenda.

Bush said he is making/has WMD, and he is a "urgent" threat to the U.S. Not true. We invaded Iraq on a LIE. Look if Saddam had all these WMD Bush KNEW he had. WHER ARE THEY? If saddam was such a threat to the U.S. Why is that no longer the reason we are there? It’s now to free the people of Iraq right? NOt WMD...

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 08:17 PM

We invaded Iraq because it was the next logical step in the war on terrorism. It really didn't matter what Bush did, you'd be venting your hatred for him regardless. Do successful, effective people bother you that much?

Ed

rodmalm Nov 09, 2003 08:33 PM

Again, you miss the point sobek. The definition of a lie, as defined by a Webster Dictionary is:

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression

Since Bush Invaded Iraq based on Intelligence from many, many countries that all said the same thing, at the worst, he was wrong because all those countries intelligence was also wrong and he repeated them, and at the best, he was right and the weapons are still there or maybe moved into Syria. There is no evidence that Bush knew that all the intelligence reports from China, France, Germany, Russia, Great Britain, the U.S. and couple of other counties, that I can't remember right now, were all lying. If you can prove that, then and only then should you call him a liar!

If you don't know the definition of lie, you should stop using that term to describe Bush or anyone else for that matter!

If you said you don't like Bush, that is fine.-no argument here since that is your opinion. If you say he lied with no evidence to back that up, you are the one that is lying! definiton #2 above

Rodney

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:32 AM

>>To create a false or misleading impression.

Bush made a False & Misleading impression that Iraq/Saddam was linked to 9/11 and Osama.

YEs some countries gave him information. Others told him that there were no problems. Many in his administration knew of forged documents. Point is he rushed into this war. It was built on a LIE, and our soldiers are paying the price...

The word fits, and stands. My opinion

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 12:41 AM

Considering that Iraq was violating the cease-fire agreement for 12 years and had been playing cat and mouse with the U.N. for that entire time (violating every U.N. resolution that was made during that entire time and causing delay after delay), I don't think Bush rushed into war in any way. I can't figure out why Clinton didn't do something years ago when it was obvious that they were violating all these resolutions and the cease-fire. I think Clinton dragging his feet is a much more accurate account of what really happened. When cease-fire agreements are violated, going back to war is the only logical recourse.

This war shouldn't have happened because it should have been handled years ago!

My opinion ,
Rodney

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:55 AM

>>Considering that Iraq was violating the cease-fire agreement for 12 years

You mean they shot at our jets that where flying over doing recon right?

WOuld we not have shoot at them if they flew over our chit? Their was no "Urgent" threat to America from Iraq.

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 01:40 AM

No, I am talking about 2 important things they agreed to in the ceasefire.

They were to stop killing their own people (at about 133 a day I might add). The most important reason in my book.

They were to stop building long range missiles to threaten their neighbors with. The second most important in my book-to prevent instability in the middle-east--if they were to attack Israel and Israel was to retaliate with nukes or something else large.

Oh,yeah--I think they were also supposed to stop making WMDs.

I didn't even think about them violating the no-fly zones. Thanks for bringing that one up!, I forgot about that one!

Point is, they violated every one!

Rodney

sobek Nov 10, 2003 01:42 PM

As I said they are one of MANY MANY MANY countries who do the same. Iraq did not pose the URGENT threat Bush and co. LIED about..

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:08 PM

It was URGENT to prevent another 9/11. It was URGENT to eliminate the wealthy terrorist (UBL), who vowed "death to America, and was responsible for 9/11. Once he was aout of the picture, it was URGENT to eliminate the wealthy terrorist (Saddam), who wouldn't hesitate to invade other countries in left unsupervised, who vowed "death to America" and who was a WMD. If you had any kids of your own maybe you'd be happy about the removal of threats like UBL and Saddam are Bush's accomplishments that you should be grateful for. You sound like such a self-centered person, I can't see how you could possibly care about anyone else, let alone the future of kids in the US. Just curious, do you have any kids?

By the way, you've gone all out bashing Bush Sr for not Bush Jr has now done. YOU HAVE COMPLETELY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF WITH EVERY CRITICISM YOU'VE MADE REGARDING THE WAR IN IRAQ. If you thought that Saddam should be killed, what difference does it make to you how the job got done?????????????

Ed

PS When Bush SR declared an end to the Gulf war, didn't you feel relieved that the many US casualties at that time were going to be avoided? I was thrilled. Sanctions were a reasonable solution at the time. What were you thinking back in 1991?

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 02:14 PM

So according to you, Iraq didn't pose an Eminent threat. That means that any and all cease-fire agreements are not to be honored by the surrendering country unless they are an Eminent threat? With that kind of thinking, cease-fire agreements would be irrelevant and should never be made since they can never be enforced without an "Eminent threat" so any war we get into we have to win by total obliteration of the enemy? That doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. A lot more innocent people will have to die, in any war, with that kind of attitude

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:16 PM

It's obvious that sobek doesn't believe in "preventive medicine".

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:51 PM

After invading Kuwait, Iraq no longer had the right to be aggressive with anyone, and nobody was bombing them so protecting itself is something that you just made up. This is the type of thing that Bush bashers, like you and Michael Moore, do all the time. Come back when you learn how to play with facts.

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 01:46 PM

Bush "rushed into" preventing another 9/11. Our soldiers have volunteered to "pay the price" for noble aims like this throughout the years. What's the problem sobek? Why do you struggle so hard to look for character flaws in Bush's personality that don't exist? We've all seen what a great job he's done so why do you think you have any chance of obliterating the obvious success of this guy? Clinton is a real bum, why don't you bash him?

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 05:25 PM

"Why is that no longer the reason we are there? It’s now to free the people of Iraq right? NOt WMD..."

The people of Iraq are already free, thanks to Bush. That event ocurred months ago. Are you slow? We are STILL THERE to ensure that they REMAIN free. Get it????????????

Ed

FastEddie Nov 08, 2003 01:20 PM

Sounds like successful people bother you. Somebidy needs a hug!

Ed

Rearfang Nov 08, 2003 02:46 PM

Ask my wife!
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Rearfang Nov 08, 2003 02:58 PM

n/p
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

sobek Nov 09, 2003 01:12 AM

Tick Tock, Flip Flop, LIE LIE LIE! I'm moving to Canada if Bush steals this one.. Been working on my "heh" just encase

http://costofwar.com/

rodmalm Nov 09, 2003 02:30 AM

We will miss you. I am sure Bush will win by a large margin this time. (I doubt if you would really go. After all, Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin are still here! A scourge on us all! ) -LOL

Rodney

sobek Nov 09, 2003 02:53 PM

Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin are still here! A scourge on us all! ) -LOL

finally something we can agree on..

But we can hope that the truth comes to light, and they throw is rich butt in the slammer. Being from the south, those cold winters in Canada would take some getting use to..lol

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 08:25 PM

Do rich/successful/happy people like Bush really bother you that much, or is it just a coincidence that you consistently use the term 'rich' as though it were derogatory? Is there something that prevents you from earning a living and maybe becoming "rich" yourself someday?

Ed

rodmalm Nov 09, 2003 08:42 PM

I happen to love the rich. They provide jobs and they pay most of the taxes so I don't have to pay so much!

It's interesting to hear the liberals compiling about the deficit and the rich. What they don't realize is that the rich are paying about 90% of that bill. You would think they would be happy the bottom 90% of tax payers only have to pay off about 10% of the deficit!

Thinking about that one should give a few liberals a headache! They aren't too good at economics.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 09, 2003 11:39 PM

Many of the extreme liberals in this country, unfortunately, are parasitic and prefer to sponge off our government rather that pay taxes (welfare frauds, intentionally unemployed, cons, etc). Since Bush isn't sympathetic to the freeloaders, he doesn't cater very well to their schemes. A liberal nit wit like Clinton or Al Sharpton would be much more suitable to help the freeloader get deeper into the pockets of taxpayers. Those who bash Bush, without regard to his undeniable success, give themselves away as more than likely being a FREELOADER. Bush 2004!

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:51 AM

Those who bash Bush, without regard to his undeniable success,

Ok earth to Eddie come in Eddie. Bush Jr. is that freeloader. If his father was not who he is, Dubya would be in prison. You can’t deny that. Success? Whets this success you speak of? His whole presidency has been a stolen disaster. 2 wars, both NOT WON. Bad economy, and the worst failure in our defense department since Pearl Harbor..

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 01:44 AM

Why would Bush Jr. be in prison? For being able to get off of drugs and alcohol? Frankly, I think a lot of democrats hate him because he was able to get off them, and they are still hooked because they have no self-control.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:18 PM

So Bush is a functional party animal. Good for him! What do I care? He gets the job done, unlike that Clinton bum.

Ed

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 03:57 PM

Bush WAS a party animal! Not any more. I think that is why the liberals hate him so much. He got over his addictions and many of them are still addicts! They are jealous of him. He thinks illegal drugs and over use of alcohol are bad for society, and they think they are good.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:14 PM

Now you are sounding like a psycho sobek. Please don't stalk Bush! Being born into a rich family is a good thing in this country. Why do you blame him for that? The guy is a success story, like his father.

Ed

rearfang Nov 10, 2003 07:27 AM

Sorry Eddie that just doesn't jive. I voted for Nixon, Nixon, Carter, (well...everyone makes one mistake)Regan, Regan, Bush Sr, abstained, Jimmy Stewart (protest vote..write in). Hardly a liberal voting record. I am semi-retired and living (at present off the proceeds of the sale of properties I owned-purchased with funds from years of being a truck driver). Hardly sounds like a freeloader...and I still would not vote for a Bush brother.
I keep hearing (or reading)both sides on this playing the personal smear game and I got to say guys...This is only a forum I know how easy it is to get caught up in it(been there), but you know...I'm a little bored with all this you have no proof stuff. Unless you start quoting from actual sources (as I have seen some of you do) and listing Bibliographies it all goes down to opinion. By golly folks...even when I have seen quotes in this arguement no one wanted to accept that.
If your going to take this exersize so seriously...You might want to establish what is an acceptable source of info because otherwise this thread will go to infinity with no resolution.
In the end friends...This is a game, a forum that means nothing in the real world..It will change niether the world..nor really anybody's vote...so what is the point of geting so agressive?? What really is to be won or lost here that is important enough to make this kind of fight?
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:21 PM

The death of 3,000 innocent US citizens on 9/11 sounds like a good reason to me.

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:25 PM

PS Rearfang: if I called YOU a liberal freeloader, then I apologize. I don't see where you could have thought that my comments were directed at YOU.

Ed

rearfang Nov 10, 2003 02:42 PM

No offence taken...I just sucumbed to the irony of your earlier statement. But as I said...This IS only a forum. If this forum could bring back those 3,000 or accomplish anything about solving anything in the real world, I would agree with the intensity here. I'm just saying (without pointing a finger at anybody)...we can debate this without getting personalities involved...and it's a lot more fun and informative. Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

sobek Nov 10, 2003 12:38 AM

>>Do rich/successful/happy people like really bother you that much?

Show me where I said they did? Happy? PLease show me where I said that.. I said people who "STEP" on others to get rich, "Bush fits right on in there." Yea I dont to much care for them..

AGAIN P L E A S E

D O N 'T

T W I S T

M Y W O R D S ......

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 12:54 AM

Your posts go back quite a ways. I have no need to twist your words around. You are welcome to re-read your posts! You HATE "the rich"! You hate Bush BECAUSE HE's RICH. And don't forget that your good buddy Michael Moore hates the rich, and you've quoted quite a bit of his garbage to deny that you think just like him. Why can't you admit the obvious?

Ed

sobek Nov 10, 2003 01:23 AM

n/p

rodmalm Nov 10, 2003 01:48 AM

after all, he is probably the best example in the entire world of someone becoming super rich by "stepping" on the backs of all the "little" people. They only seem to hate American that have become rich by being successful businessmen.

Rodney

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 02:27 PM

There's no need for me to show anything. Your posts speak for themselves.

Ed

FastEddie Nov 10, 2003 12:09 AM

Whether Bush is re-elected or not (he will be), our country will still be a capitalistic society. You disdain for "the rich" will still be alive and well. Canada is a socialistic society, and, given your distaste for your country, I'd suggest you move to Canada regardless of who the President is. I'm just looking out for ya.

Ed

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