Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi. I already posted this on the general forum, but since all of the snakes I listed (aside from the one) are rat snakes, I figured I should post this here as well to get more responses.

I probably won't be getting a new snake for a while, (my husband says no more snakes at LEAST until 2004), but I would like some opinions on what type of snake I should look into.

I currently have 4 cornsnakes and while I love corns, they are SO mellow. I'm at the point where I would like to try my hand at keeping a more difficult/more aggressive species. However, I would still like to be able to handle it from time to time. I don't want an animal that is JUST for display. Also a mouse/rat eater is a must, it can eat fish and/or chicks as well, but it's staple should be rodents. I don't want to have to feed insects, amphibians, other snakes, etc.

A few snakes that have caught my eye are Texas Rat Snakes, Tiger Rat Snakes (Spilotes pullatus), Red-tailed Green Rat Snakes (Gonyosoma oxycephela) and Cave Dwelling Ratsnakes (Elaphe taeniura ridleyi). Maybe a carpet python, but I'd prefer to stay in the colubrid family.

I would love to hear any/all of your suggestions/opinions.

Thanks.

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to rat snakes, but I would steer clear of red-tailed rats. I hear that they're one of the meanest snakes out there. Far worse than just aggressive.
-Prttyhtmchn

I find it curious that anyone would want an aggressive snake for the sheer fact that it bites readily. I have lots of colubrids of different dispositions and sizes (I mention that only for severity of bites!) but wish every one I have was dog-tame! BTW-I breed a line of true Okeetees that would make you change your opinion of corn snakes! I have big pines and bulls that, honestly, scare me at times. I've kept snakes for over twenty years and have never been attracted to something that bites, unless I was captivated by the beauty of the animal and could overlook that behavior.

I can understand wanting something a little busy...a little more lively, with a little more "personality." I'm sure he/she isn't looking for something that bites! LOL!

If you want to stick with Ratsnakes, try Egyptians. They hiss so loud...it made me laugh 'til I cried when I first got my pair. It doesn't seem like that much noise could come out of a itty bitty snake. Mine are a still little fiesty and I understand they have a reputation for it. One bit me the first day but I haven't been bitten since.

Here's a pic: http://www.prehistoricpets.com/viewimage.asp?type=3&img=egypt_rat&n1=3-012

Or, if you want something a little more challenging, and busy...try my personal favorite; False Water Cobras. They're always checking things out, watching you as you walk by and more. I have 3 but one is my favorite. If I open her tank, she comes out and immediately climbs up me like she's been waiting all day for me to hold her. I love it! They're really fun when they flare their neck but that only happens if you startle them or they don't trust you. These guys are rear-fanged...I have been bitten but for me, it was just like any other snake bite. (Be careful anyway because you may be sensitive to it, like some people are to bee stings. Where it is not a problem for some it may be very bad for one.)

Here's a pic: http://www.members.carol.net/~jmaloney/animal158.htm
This is what mine 3 look like, nearly black and white like this. There are some that are rich brown and gold, like the ones pictured here: http://www.eastbayvivarium.com/gallery/snakesgallery/falsewater.html

I don't necessarily want a snake that bites. I guess I just didn't express my wants very well. I guess I should have said that I wanted a snake with more personality, like you said.

If the snake I get bites me, so be it, but I'm not a masochist. That's not what I'm looking for. I guess I just want a challenge, more so than the cornsnakes that I currently have. That's all.

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

That's what I thought...I can see how corns would get boring.

It looks like someone else suggested getting an egyptian ratsnake too. Did you check out my links...what did you think??

I'm really curious to see what you decide to go with.

Umm...That's a little odd to want an aggressive snake. My hognose snake likes to hiss at me and sometimes strike at me in the wrong direction with its mouth closed. Then when I pick him up he's fine. But that's as aggressive as he gets, and I like him that way. If you want to get bit, I don't know, just go to a park or something and try to pick up a snake there; one will tag you sooner or later. Maybe you’d like a hognose?
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James

The red-tailed green's reputation is built mainly on WC snakes. The CB ones from my experience are much much nicer. I don't think there's much of a guarantee in temperment.
E. taeinura in my experience are just as tame as american rats, the only difference is in size and shape.
My black rat is not a biter but is quite strong and can be difficult to control.
Carpets are just tough because they constantly try to wrap around everything. I find myself walking backwards with them on a hook just so they don't knock a lamp over or something. I guess my Taiwan beauty is like that too.
My blood python ended up being a pussycat, which really suprised me given their reputation.
I think a Chinese king rat would be a bit more of a challenge size and strength wise, as well as a little more 'exotic looking'. Maybe you should look into them.
My two most likely to bite snakes are my Honduran milk and one of my Kenyan sand boas. And my rattlesnake, if I gave her a chance.

Well, if you want a more aggressive snake, S. pullatus would be a good choice. But they got a vicious bite if they get ahold of you, and like to chew. My redtail is fine as long as you are slow around her, but my number on tag timer has gotta be my G. janseni, the Celebes blacktailed ratsnake, he's vicious. But I would never be afraid of a tagged by any of my snakes. There is only one colubrid that I don't wanna be bitten by, and that is any of the indigos, cribos etc...if you wanna biter that'll do true damage those are the ones, but they aren't as likely to bite. But of course, snake to snake variations do occure in temperment, and personal experience is just that. Ya kinda gotta just wing it and see what works for you sometimes.

Conrad,
Ever see a black milk bite? HOLY SMOKES they've got some clamping power, much like an indigo. Even small ones can put a surprisingly nasty bite on you. Fortunately most of them are calm, even by milksnake standards. Agreed, most colubrids can't really do much damage, but I prefer snakes I can trust- even if that means I can trust them to tag me if I reach in the cage. It's the ones that get tired of being held and nail you that I get frustrated with. Did you get Dennis' blue beauties? Those big snakes scared me, I considered buying them. Too fast, too big, too mean.

I'd go with a beauty snake, I think they're a great step into the quicker moving rat snakes. Taiwans are usually pretty calm, but quicker than corns for sure. You definitely have to keep your eye on them! My blue beauties are also fantastic animals, my male would satisfy your desire for "aggression" that's for sure! But as with all the beauties in my opinion, temperaments really vary from snake to snake. Ridleyi are great animals too, again, mine is a puppy, but they vary as well. Even then, as calm as she is, even as a youngster if you handle her the wrong way she will bite you.
Another favourite of mine are my radiated rat snakes. VERY fast, and can get very pissy. They calm down as adults to a certain point, but definitely still completely different to handle than a corn. Gotta have quick reflexes and not be afraid of having to fish them out from under furniture when you just weren't quick enough

hope this helps,
Kris
in Mtl.
Canadian Corns

First let me say that snake bites dont feel very good. I have an emerald tree boa that has about 1/4 inch teeth right now(and hes just a yearling). The last time he bit me and chewed (2 months ago I'm due for another bite) He did more damage than I imagined he could, they were more like 1/4 inch deep lacerations than pin-pricks. It hurt for a while!

When looking for a snake ask yourself which one you like the most. Base it on looks or anything you care for, in my experience everyone has a snake they are looking for. What snake do you want?

I can tell you a bit about the snakes on that list of yours(if only a few from word of mouth) but first I want to know what snake you have your eye on.

If I had to pick one from my list solely from the little I've read and seen (which I must admit isn't much), it would probably be the Red-tailed Green Ratsnake. That or the Cave Dwelling Ratsnake.

I'm especially drawn to the Red-tail because it is a large green snake. You don't find many snakes that fit that discription (at least I haven't).

One problem with getting one of these guys is the fact that I would want a captive bred one and I don't know of anyone breeding them. At least I know of a few people breeding ridleyi, which is probably why they are second on my list. That and they are beautiful too.
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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

The Red tail rats seem to be, and stay, pretty aggressive. I have been gathering info from a number of reputable sources, and it appears even the captive breds can stay nasty. I don't presently work with this species, but have been seriously considering it, and personally, I don't really feel like getting bit all the time.This is not to say that you might get a good one, or have better luck than others, but make a wise decision as to what your willing to deal with.

I've begun to work with Spilotes and they are a fast and fascinating species. There are a number of high yellow and striped snakes being offered, and they do have a tendancy to calm down, particulary with CB's. They also have a keeled triangular shaped body and very shiny scales, along with a very ominous look about them! Here's a link to the many morph's: http://www.herpnet.net/spilotes/gallery_test.html

If your truely going for the Oxy's e-mail me and I'll give you a source for captive hatched.

Freight

I would recommend Pakistan King Diamond Rat (Spalerosophis artriceps), my pair is quite peaceful and almost mellow, but other people who keep them, have often just an opposite experience. Also, they are extremely beautiful and active snakes that go through pretty crazy onthogenetic color change.

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and collecting info before adding a new snake to their collection. Congratulations. You should enjoy the next snake alot more and the snake will benefit. There is a snake for just about any trait or charateristic you would like. There's several other things to consider. Are you willing to keep and have room for a bigger snake? Do you want a big snake? Some of the snakes will fit your personality type trait, but require a different environment than the corns you now have. I would recommend, unless there is a snake you just have to have, that you get a snake that requires about the same husbandry. Since you have corns, are you looking for a snake that is colorful or has several color morphs to choose from? Any snake you get will need to be handled at times one way or another. You can't be afraid or intimidated with that snake if it bites you. You need to clean the cage or enclosure, etc. Some clean cages without removing the snake, but I think you need to get the snake and everything out several times a year to get the cage clean and disinfected. Do or will you be hibernating your snakes? People have already posted some excellent snakes and info for you. I wanted to post that its great you are making the effort and taking the time up front that will benefit you and the snake in the future. I happen to love rat snakes. There are several different species and subspecies that will fit you personally and be a great addition to your cornsnakes. I don't think you go could go wrong with any in the obsoleta complex. Good luck

I couldn't have said it any better. There are a lot of "ratsnakes" out there, and several that come in some amazing color morphs. It's all about knowing what you want, what you like, and what you have the physical capacity for. The rule for this hobby has always seemed to me to be,"Knowing is number one."

it pretty darn good to me. That's a nice phrase Conrad.

Yes, I would like a larger snake than a corn. Actually the bigger the better, but because my husband doesn't want a large boid, I'm trying to stick with colubrids.

One reason I like corns is because of all of the color morphs, but that's not what I'm looking for here. I would like an animal with a striking apperance though.

After these past few days, looking at what everyone has posted and thinking about what it is I truely would like, I really am leaning towards the red-tailed green rat. If that doesn't pan out though, I'll probably get a ridleyi. From what little I've read about green rats, they are extremely nasty and while I do want something more challenging, I may not what to go that route just yet.

Thanks.

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

if you go with a red-tail, then get a captive bred one. I don't have one in my collection, but it sounds like the captive bred would be better to handle. Good luck Amanda and let us know when you get that new addition and how you like it.

You've made me think a little.

I guess I just have to continue to scour the internet for resources about these snakes and make my own conclusions once I have more info.

Are there any good books you can recommend about these species?

I'll probably be back though for specifics concerning 1 or 2 of these snakes later.

Thanks.

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

Really depends on how much fun you want to have. My personal favorite is Ptyas carinatus. Four meters of 'fun'. We had a blast but they are huge and vicious. They mimic the king cobra (look at the pattern on the snake in the pics, sure looks awfully king like) and bite just as hard, just lacking big glands and hypodermic teeth.

However, they can really hit you hard. Watch the 'Snake Savior' of Nat Geo's 'Snake Wranglers'. Some assistant reptile chick in India tries to tail one. Pays for it with an absolutely brutal chomp to the face. The snake then pissed off, using her arms as a launching pad. We of course rewatched it many times. We finally worked it out. Just before she gets nailed, a split second, some guy says something to her, she flicker her head slightly, light reflects of glasses. Snakes smacks her a good one. Too funny. The best part was that the cameraman had just panned off of the snake and was doing a close up on her face. Bang. Right in frame. A true professional.

For a lest brutal species, try Coelognathus radiatus, the radiated rat snake. We had about fifty at a fime a few times in our research collection. About two meters in length and utterly psychotic. But with a snake hook and tailing them, its no worries. We actually used them as starter snakes to get people up to speed with venomous

Some of the more aggresive ones are also some of the most beautiful. Spilotes for one are stunning snakes from Central America. Not a real drama to work with. Gonyosoma are actually quite nasty but since they are so much stronger (and more arboreal) they can be much more of a pain than the C. radiatus.

Some of the other Ptyas can be easier to work with and ironically some of the smaller ones are also some of the most beautiful. There are some green ones coming out of Hong Kong that are very sharp and only about two meters.

As a taxonomical aside, Coelognathus radiatus used to be in Elaphe along with a pretty impressive collection of other snakes that only superficially resembled each other. Just as anything that wasn't conveniently an elapid or viper, became a colubrid. Thats all been sorted out now. One of the most conpicous findings has been that C. radiatus is not even a ratsnake at all but are actually closer to a racer (Coluber has been another dumping ground but still remains to be sorted out fully). Its certainly deep with in the Colubinae family (Colubridae as a family is toast, there are several deeply split ancient lineages there. )

There are just so many others to choose from, its really a matter of chosing your poison. But be careful. Virtually all the 'colubrids' still have the ancestral venom gland. Some of these, such as Psammophis for example, are quite dangerous and may be able to cause lethal bites. This has happened before, Rhabdophis was just considered a genus of cool Asian 'gartersnakes' and were hugely popular in the early 80s pet trades till they killed a few people in Asia and hamered some kids who bought them in pet stores. There is also the boomslang and twig snakes and two dead eminent herpetologists not too long after each other. So, as you wander through the merry world of the advanced snakes, keep that in mind.

Cheers
BGF
Ptyas carinatus pics

Ya know, I've been trying to get some Ptyas forever, and you always remind why I want one so much......

Keep trying mate. I know that some species are being shipped out of Hong Kong (Sam Li). Get ahold of Corey Sawyer - Sawyer Zoological as he is getting shipments from there. Ptyas carinatus are few on the ground but will show up eventually but I know that some of the others are currently available from Hong Kong and Indonesia.

Cheers
BGF

Well, when I finally get ahold of some...I'm gonna try breeding the mud out of them, so that I never have to look for one again! lol

Good on ya. I reckon Ptyas carinatus would sell really well, even hot-keepers would be interested in them due to their huge size and apparent king cobra mimicry. Some of the other Ptyas can be very colourful but I much prefer the P. carinatus

Cheers
BGF

Which tends to grow larger? P. carinatus or P. korros. I've always heard that P. korros can get over 11' easy, not like some other snakes, ie., S. pullatus, which sometimes can be found that long. I have always wanted P. korros, as from what I've read, are the longest colubrid on the planet. But I gotta say, P. carinatus is definately beautiful...I'm just hoping that between my current or soon to be current clutches, I can find a couple of these snakes before they get sold off as cobra food(the #1 reason I keep missing them).

K. rats are pretty good sized, active, fun, and some people's seem to have a mean streak. Mine are puppy dogs, but they hit thawed mice pretty hard, it's fun to watch, unlike the corns who sniff them, find the head, and ever so slowly eat them. I lucked into mine at the Raleigh show and I think I'll keep the species for many years, I "like" them more than my corns, kings, Pitouphis, or anything. If you'd like a male hatchling, respond, I'll hook ya up.
Sorry about my initial reaction to your post, I misunderstood where you were coming from.

Climacs are underrated for a good snake to keep and work with. I like mine a lot.