Reptile & Amphibian Forums

On another forum, a person who claims to be quite knowledgeable about skinks...including PTS...has posted that PTS can thrive just fine on a diet of canned food (cat food/dog food?) and crickets.
I have not seen anyone on HERE post that they feed their PTS meat of any sort...and I certainly have never given it to Dill.
Is this guy full of crap, or can PTS actually eat meat and protein foods, without it harming them?

Thanks for any info you can provide,
-----
Kim

Depends on who you talk to. I have an article in front of me right now on food chemical discrimination by Corucia Zebrata (W.E. Cooper, 2000) that claims that Corucia have an exclusively herbivorous diet, based on a study by Iverson (Adaptations to Herbivory in Iguanid Lizards, 1982). Unfortunately, I haven't read that study, so I don't know what those conclusions are based on. However, when Cooper gave a group of Corucia the option to bite cotton swabs scented with either romaine lettuce, crickets guts, or deionized water, they preferentially went for the cricket and lettuce scents, indicating that they could smell a difference and that both the crickets and the lettuce were considered palatable by the skinks.

Since most skinks are omnivorous, and Corucia are closely related to Tiliqua, which are omnivorous, it is implied that herbivory is a derived trait (ie, their ancestors were omnivores), so it wouldn't be a huge surprise to me to find that they still eat some animal protein in the wild, probably facultatively.

This is supported by accounts from John Groves of Corucia actively chasing crickets to eat them at the Philly Zoo and my personal experience of Corucia voraciously eating pinkie mice at the Baltimore Zoo. Both of these zoos have had success with long term captives and breeding, and both feed animal protein as a dietary supplement.

This would tend to tip me in favor of an occasional meat treat for Corucia except for the fact that we know that captive adult Iguanas will eat protein if offered, but it can lower life expectancies by quite a bit if eaten too frequently (some would say at all).

So for me the jury is still out on the best diet plan. For the time being I have my skinks on a completely herbivorous diet, but I'm also still looking for more info. I'll eventually have time to track down the Iverson article and take a look at it and perhaps that will help some. If you're interested in it....
Iverson, JB. 1982. Adaptations to herbivory in iguanine lizards. In Burghardt GM, Rand, AS, editors. Iguanas of the world; their behavior, ecology and conservation. Park Ridge, NJ: Noyes Publications. p. 60-76.

Whew! Didn't mean to be so long winded. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this guy may not be doing a bad thing by feeding meat.

-Z

I read the initial post again today when I was fully awake. I'd like to modify my last statement in my previous post. This guy may not be doing a bad thing if he's feeding animal protein to his skinks occasionally. But as the primary diet? I can't think of anyone who would support that. That would definitely be detrimental.

-Z

Z,

With all due respect, I don't understand why you would promote a supplemental protein diet to a high-canopy herbivorous species? It is true that with their powerful jaws they may have a snail eating ancestry (Prehensile-Page, Brian- SFCRC, Herrill) but I have heard of no evidence of an omnivorous orientation of this species. In my experience, There has been no prediliection for insects, cat/dog food etc.

Best regards,

Jean

Just curious - did you read my first post?

You may not have seen a prediliction for consumption of animal protein in your animals, but then again, have you ever offered it? The Cooper article I refered to, and the personal observations of John Groves show clear evidence that many skinks do actively pursue an omnivorous diet, at least in captivity.

Again, I will state that that doesn't *necessarily* make it a healthy addition to the diet (as is the case with Iguanas), but IMO it can't be completely ruled out.

Just because an animal lives high in the canopy and is primarily herbivorous doesn't mean that it can't be a facultative omnivore.

I'm not recommending that any of us go out and buy crickets or mice for our skinks tomorrow, I'm just pointing out that there are 2 opinions on the matter, both based in scientific research and observation and that there is a chance that the Corucia-as-facultative-omnivore theory may not be wrong.

And just to put a finer point on it so that you won't mis-read me again, I did not, nor do I now, "promote" feeding animal protein to Corucia. In fact, I clearly stated that I do not feed it to mine. What I do promote is never being satisfied that you know enough or have all the right answers, as this leads to automatically discounting anything that contradicts your paradigm.

-Z

I have offered insects in the past to my WC adult pair- this was a year or more ago when this same topic came up on the forum. I had been avidly recommending the only vegetarian diet, then did some web surfing and read some of the diets offered to captive PTS at some well known zoos (primarily vegetarian with animal protien supplements). I then out of curiousity offered some insects including crickets and silkworms. Crickets were ignored. Gertie gave the silkworm the tongue taste, hiss and back away treatment. Chip bit down on a silkworm more by accident than anything else, as it was on a mulberry leaf her was eating- and he spit it out rapidly. Mine will accept crushed egg shell, which I have added on occasion as a calcium source. I have not ever offered dog/cat food or pinkie mice. I am currently thinking that the next time I see water canned snails at the grocery store, I just might buy them to see if they will be eaten... If the PTS don't eat them, my husband surely won't let them go to waste...
cheers, Jess b

Jess,

Big LOL! I hope your husbund doesn't get the 'runs'. I hope also your pregnancy is going well as well as Gertie's twins.

I too, have found Corucia indifferent to annoyed at the presence of crickets.

Best Regards,
Jean

Z,

Just curious, Did you ever read Brian's earlier posts on Gastropodivorous tendencies which I alluded to? Yes, there is evidence Corucia zebrata had a omnivorous ancestry but in my experience (yes, in practice) I have seen any evidence to the contrary that Corucia zebrata has not evolved to a complete herbivorous existence. As with the Green Iguana, a herbivorous animal should not have the clock forced back in this is the case. I, however, will keep an open mind if additional evidence presents itself. If offering meat, an new arrived animal in a state of starvation should also be screened out. keep this in mind as well, one can offer their children cotton candy and Corn curls to eat and they may accept it readily; but is it a proper diet?
If the arboreal statement is in deference to Hemisphaeriodon gerrardi, I may remind you that this is a semi-arboreal species. There is only Corucia zebrata in the Scincidae and The Green Iquana in the Iguanidae that are high canopy arboreal and herbivorous. Other lizard species do not have this two factors side-by-side. Tree Monitors are arboreal but omnivorous. Rhino Iguanas are largely herbivorous but are not high canopy arboreal. etc.

I'm sorry if I hit a nerve with you Geeez.

A proper Forum is designed for formal dignified discussion-not just look at the pictures of my enclosure or my new 'baby'. (No offense meant to the picture folks -pictures can be enriching too.) Granted, there may diametrical viewpoints but these can be handled in a dignified manner. In summation, please, let's not tear down one another and try to be respectful. If somehow you (or others) feel I, as well, am guilty of this-then I apologize.

Best regards,
Jean

Jean, I won’t be dragged into a discussion where it is my job to defend the theory of Corucia as facultative omnivores. Mostly because I’m not convinced myself that the theory is correct. I merely pointed out that some people do believe it is correct, and it is backed by some scientific evidence. Your response to that was to tell me that I shouldn’t “promote” feeding animal protein to Corucia. How you got from one to the other I have no idea, especially as I carefully pointed out that I do not feed meat to my animals. Your comments lead me to believe that you did not read my post closely, and just filled in the gaps on what you thought I was saying. This is not the first time you and I have had this problem, but I do hope it will be the last.

Now, if you’d like to have a “dignified discussion” about the relative merits of the research on the diet of Corucia, I’d be perfectly happy to participate. But perhaps we should start it on a new thread, as this one is bound to be lost soon, if it hasn’t been already (one of the things I dislike about KS formatting).

-Z

I'm still watching! This subject is very interesting to me. I will post on a new thread if any PTS at my house show interest in a snail...
cheers, Jess b

Perhaps survive for a period of time, but thrive? I don't think so... I would guess that an individual fed this sort of diet (if the unfortunate PTS would even eat it), on a regular basis would react like an iguana and have kidney damage, and eventually kidney failure due to the high protien content. Iguanas will happily eat monkey biscuits, eggs, dog food, cat food, insects- but they invariably go into kidney failure as adults when fed these as staples. Their bodies are adapted to a high fiber vegetarian diet.
If you read what many zoos are feeding PTS, it is a predominantly vegetarian diet- but many DO supplement with small amounts of animal protien such as egg.
I don't give mine any animal protien- and they are reproducing sucessfully and often, plus the babies are doing well- which by my book tells me they being fed a nutritionally sound diet. Of course it would be better if I had f2 and f3 generations to prove it, but I don't (yet)
Jess b