Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a fairly good population of P. coronatum near my house, and they are building some houses in the hills with the horned lizards. Is is possible to report this to the california fish and game people and get protection over this area? If the area gets protected could it help me get permits to own these awesome lizards?

The answer to all your questions is NO, not without a scientific collecting permit. Their are areas here in Yucca Valley with very dense populations of coronatum that are being "marked" ,as we speak, for development. I have prodded many organizations and Fish and Wildlife to help me obtain a permit to allow me to save the HLs, I've got nothing but negative responses (I'm not qualified so to speak). They would rather see the HLs die than go into my incompetent hands. Isn't this great? They are saving the HLs by not allowing people like me to save them? Yet they allow their habitat to be destroyed everyday. Go figure. Contact the Southern California Horned Lizard Conservation Society president he's the only one that might be able to help.

I know how you feel it makes me really mad, and I wish I could do something, but no one will listen to me I doubt I am even old enough to have a permit. Sadly, they wont listen to me, I am just a kid.

You would think that at a minumum those CHL's could be relocated to burn areas, even if they have to winter in captivity while the burn areas recovers enough to support them. Even if the success rate was very low, it would be better than total loss, and there are surely many folks here who would volunteer time and resources.

....I have this thought though, having seen serious politics at work before, that maybe losing HL's to development actually enhances some protection agendas. It is sad if true, and I am not making any acusations (or trying to start a flame war). Maybe I am just jaded. But if you think about it, a successful relocation program would give developers an out when the environmental agruments start and diminish the crys of those who would maintian all undeveloped areas as they are, which is a losing battle inevitably. People need room.

It is a needless loss at any rate and I hate to see it happen.
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Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

yeah it really is quite sad, but i agree that they should at least have a relocation program for the CHL's. But the good and fortunate thing about the houses being built is that it is going to be a few multi million dollar homes, so not all of the habitat is going to be destroyed. At least some of the major areas aren't even going to be close to the construction. But even if i did try to get the area the construction company has, I hear, the political support from the mayor and other city and state officials, so if I tried to take it to court I would probably lose no matter what.

sorry if some of it doesn't make sense I meant to say "if I tried to get the area protected"

Cable, translocations into burn areas will be taxing on the recovery areas, as well as any animals already located in the burn areas. Habitat recovery will take several years to reestablish the plant communities, then the insect communities, and then the other species. In some areas, the fires may have burned too hot to allow "normal" fire recovery. That would do the horned lizards no good at all. Plant communities will recover first in the Coastal Sage Scrub and Chaparrel. The plants are "designed" to recover from fires with little problem (if the fires are not too hot). Horned Lizard populations already in the areas burned will have enough problems without additional competition from attempted translocations for available resources

The horned lizards in the burn areas may survive quite well if they were burrowed deep enough for winter hibernation. If the fires were too hot, due to plant densities, the populations will be slow to recover. Any attempt at translocations/relocations would put both the native populations and the translocation/relocation animals in severe jeopardy. It is a matter of resources available.

What is your definition of a "successful relocation" program? That is a problem, even in the biological/ecological terms. Is it short-term success or long-term success? It is not a simple definition, by any means. Even if there were a set criteria for translocation/relocation, the cost to developers to do such a mitigation would not be acceptable. Cost-benefit analysis, you know. The entire process of habitat analysis, capture, mark, monitor (both short and long term), and protection would be significant.

Lester G. Milroy III

Hey Lester,
I had posted a question about HL fire survivability a while back but don't remember ever getting any responses. I assumed from this that either there were no studies or there were no survivors.
If you know of any studies available I'd love to see them.

If there is reasonable survivability of local populations of fire areas then the point is moot, there would probably not be a need to introduce new critters to speed up a recovery as a natural recovery balance seems to be built into most of natures cycles.

The question would then be, what do you do with HL's that are to be displaced through development?

Thanks for the post.
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Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

Hello Cable,
There have been a lot of studies done on habitat fire recovery but nothing focused on horned lizard population recovery that I am aware of currently. I have noted in my research horned lizard population recovery on a small scale at two sites, one in San Diego County and one in Riverside County, but it has been only small impact areas. I can provide you with some information, if you like?

Lester G. Milroy III

I'd be very interested Lester. In this or any other HL info you'd care to share. Espicially coastal HL's.

How is that website coming along?
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Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

Just a note that might be of interest. I was in an area here that burned about 18 months ago to the ground. It was mostly manzanita, scrub and low grass. The foliage is starting to come back and I also noted P. Californicus which seemed to be doing fine.
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Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

Jeff, the problem is that you will not submit a proposal for study that "benefits the biological and ecological requirements" of the horned lizard. Submit a proposal for study! You can also write negative comments to EIRs for proposed developments, but you have not done that either. Identify the areas proposed for development, file Rare Find reports with Fish and Game to identify habitat areas, and submit a proposal for study. You just might get positive response.
Lester G. Milroy III

Lester, The only negative responses I have recieved are from you. The only problem I had with F & G was the fact that they required your signature to complete my application. I knew getting it would be a joke, of which it has been. You never answer my e-mails. You hold the permits for the Southern California Chapter of the HLCS. Many people would just like a simple answer of what they can do to save HLs that are going to be bulldozed. You say they shouldn't be kept, relocated or reestablished. You are saying nothing can be done. You should read the society by laws again, look what is included straight from the web site:
d. Pursuing strategies for the propagation of horned lizards in order to maintain or reestablish local populations.

Hello Jeff,
I have not been able to answer your latest email yet because I have either been at the university or in the field doing fire surveys for recovery monitoring to begin in the spring.

The permits I have, I had long before I established the HLCS California chapter, and even before HLCS existed. I am well aware of the bylaws for the society. What you quote from the bylaws is from our original establishment, when people had an idea of ways to promote conservation issues. Captive propogation was a possibility (underlined). HLCS also started in Texas and the laws there were and are different.

As for saying nothing can be done, I have never said that. I promote reporting by way of site surveys and filing Rare Find Reports to California Fish and Game for the Natural Diversity Data Base. With the data gathered and analyzed, habitat protection can and will provide better management of reserves and open space, and protection for the horned lizards.

As for never answering your emails, Yes I have. If you like, I can post them here on the forum and you can read them again.

I do not promote keeping horned lizards because they are very difficult to maintain in captivity, for the average person as well as for people that are herpetologists, ecologists, and biologists. Translocations and relocations do not work. Read the literature. Dr. Wade Sherbrooke does not promote keeping HLs in captivity. Dr. Wendy Hodges does not promote keeping HLs in captivity. Dr. Kelly Zamudio does not promote keeping HLs in captivity. Zoos will not even keep HLs in captivity. Why? Because of the difficulty meeting their requirements, ecological and biological. And the list goes on.

In order for me to get permits, I had to file a study/research plan (proposal) in order to get an MOU and Scientific Collection Permits. Why is it that you think you should not have to do the same? I am a Conservation Biologist. Does that make me better than you? Not necessarily. But I do know how to gather and analyze the information required to understand or develop an understanding of the animals I work with and what is needed to make the difference.

I have talked with Fish and Game and other biologists about your request and until you can provide what has been requested of you, I cannot provide support for your request. The Society cannot provide support for your request. Our Board of Directors will not provide support for your request.

If you read the literature and scientific studies, you should have no problem formulating a research/study proposal.

This forum is not your sounding board for your problems. If you read the disclaimer for this forum, it makes it real clear that "these lizards are protected in many states" and promotes conservation issues. That is what I do. I have helped a lot of people on the forum and will continue to do so, as time permits.

Lester G. Milroy III

Lester,
Will filing a Rare Find Report stop the development of 257 track homes scheduled for development next year here? Will even a single horned lizard be saved if I file the report? I don't think so. The question is simple, What can a non qualified person like myself do to save HLs that are imminent danger of being bulldozed?

When you state that translocation and relocation for HLs doesn't work, and that I should read the literature, you failed to cite the literature. I have read much literature on HLs and have never came across a report on the failures of translocation and relocation. Please cite the literature.

In reference to your list of people that you state opinions for that do not promote keeping of HLs I find it quite hypocritical if in fact what you say is true. Most of them have in fact kept horned lizards in captivity, sometimes in very large numbers. In Wade Sherbrookes new article on HLs their is a section on captive care. You keep horned lizards in captivity. Your generalization that zoo's don't keep HLs is incorrect, I have seen pictures of captive HLs in zoos (Randall Grays new book) as well as heard first hand of a zoo that keeps and breeds p. asio. I have seen them captive at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum as well.

If you remember correctly I put forth many ideas for a proposal (including substrate adaptation, nutritional requirements, and reproductive rates), none fit your criteria. It became quite clear that nothing I proposed would be satisfactory to you, not for lack of good ideas but because of personal issues.

Are you a moderator of this forum? To tell me as if you have some authority over me "This forum is not your sounding board for problems." is highly laughable. If you think replying to a question and giving a personal experience of the lack of support for saving HLs (exact same scenario as geckboys) is a problem for me you are sadly mistaken, I have no problems. It is a problem for the great numbers of HLs that are going to be bulldozed into oblivion next year thanks to your lack of support.

Jeff,

Filing Rare Find Reports documents the species in an area. If you do not know about these reports and Natural Diversity Data Base, you had better learn about it because it is a valuable tool. Will it stop the development "here" (where ever here is)? No, but why did you not address the issue of HLs present when the development hearing and proposals were presented? What can an "unquilified" person do? Stop being apathetic and attend hearings, write letters, write negative comment to development proposals, report field findings, make phone calls.

You want the literature, you do the research. You cite literature, you have access to the internet, you do the research. I have files and notebooks full of literature from my research and for my research. I took the time to do the searches. You do the same. You also have access to universities, libraries, scientific journals and other resources.

The people I mentioned have kept HLs in captivity for scientific study, by permit. I have seen Wade Sherbrooke's outdoor enclosures and seen the research in progress. Like wise with other biologists/ecologists. They had proposals for study and methodology and proceedures for their studies. And yes, I keep HLs for study. I have proposals and permits, methodologies and proceedures. I know people that work in the Sonoran Desert Museum, and the HLs they have are typically "rescue" animals kept in large outdoor enclosures. But they also have high mortality rates and other problems. What zoos keep HLs? Many years ago, zoos around the US tried to keep HLs but they had very high mortality rates. Recent attempts have also had the same results.

You presented ideas to me but you have not submitted a written proposal, as required by Fish and Game. The criteria are very simple, the proposal must provide results that benefit the conservation (biological and ecological) issues of horned lizards. The data must be verifiable and quantifiable. The purpose of the study must be clearly defined, and methods and proceedures identified. Is that too much?

I do not have personal issues with you. As a matter of fact, I can totally ignore you and not have a problem with it. You just do not want to have to meet requirements. And that is fine, too.

I answered "geckoboy's" question. I may not answer all of his questions at once. I provided key points for his question and I was thanked by him for doing so. If he has further questions, he can also email me, and I can probably be even more specific to answering his questions.

If HLs are lost in your area, it is because you did not meet the requirements. You did not do the PVAs, the field surveys, the written research proposals, write negative comment to proposed development, call a biological consultant for assistance, call Fish and Game, etc. Like Cable Hogue said, HLs will continue to be lost because people need a place to live. Do I like that notion? No. But until the "BEST AVAILABLE SCIENCE" to support protecting the species and their habitats is done, and better planning for development is achieved, that is the way it is. The "best available science" meets criteria.

Lester G. Milroy III

Lester,
I will find out what a Rare Find Report is and determine if it is beneficial. Here is in Yucca Valley where 257 track homes are planned for development next year. It is not uncommon to drive the roads in April and May and see 10 CHLs in one mourning in this area. There are also many areas just south of I-10, mcalli habitat, being developed. I called you close to three years ago concerning these issues. You said I would need various permits in order to conduct surveys and monitor populations. You said you might have the time to come down here but nothing materialized. After that I made numerous phone calls to Fish and Game and read through their website. I filled out the SCP application with a short proposal. It was returned stating Lester Milroy is already doing what you are proposing. My alternatives where to work with you under your permits, or if I needed my own obtain your signature as a sponsor. This is where I stand. I am a working family man so my time is limited. Letters and hearings seem fruitless I prefer direct results.

I have searched high and low for relocation and translocation information regarding HLs, many databases as well as many sources. You said HL translocation and relocation has a 91% failure rate, where did you get this number? I have citied literature when asked.

I did not question the keeping of HLs, you did. You stated these individuals where against keeping them. I was merely pointing out the old saying as it came to mind "Do as I say not as I do." Its like the politician who drives an SUV, but pushes it to be outlawed for regular people because its high fuel demands are destroying the environment. He is more qualified and meets specific criteria? Only the elite should have certain privileges I guess.

It is not too much for me to write a proposal in fact it would be very easy.

The things I could legally do have been done, all others require a SCP as you know, I need a permit. I was thinking of starting my own organization. A HL Propagation and Study Center. It would be easier than depending on other people for organizational support as required to save the CHL and FTHL. This is why I have questioned laws in the past. Animals habitats should be protected first. It does no good to prevent "take" but allow habitat to be destroyed. "Take" should be the last measure. This is why saving individual CHL and FTHL is extremely difficult and may well be impossible for people that don't meet specific criteria.

Jeff,

You still do not want to comply with the simple requirements. Write a proposal and submit it. If you want sponsorship, which is required, meet the requirements. Why is it that you think you are above the requirements? I have had to meet the requirements, as have many others.

Write a proposal. Identify the areas of proposed study and the methodologies.

The following information will also be required:

1. A report of progress at the end of each year
2. File Rare Find Reports of localities where the HLs are found
3. Horned Lizards taken from the field must be reported and identified by the following:
3a. Species
3b. SVL and TL measurements
3c. Sex
3d. Weight on capture and weight documented throughout study period
3e. Body temperature of horned lizards and ground temperature at time of capture
3f. Date and time
3g. GPS locality information (Township and Range information if possible)
3h. Description and photographs of enclosures to maintain HLs in captivity
3i. Make fascilities available for inspection by officials at any time
3j. Make records available for review at any time
3k. Report any and all mortalities during course of study and in yearly reports
4. Actual number of horned lizards maintained will be regulated by the California Department of Fish and Game and will not be exceeded
5. No horned lizards will be sold, traded or exchanged without the written authorization of the California Department of Fish and Game
6. No horned lizards will be released back into the wild, relocated, or repatriated without the written authorization of the California Department of Fish and Game
7. Make provisions for an insurance liability policy
8. A final report will be of publication quality

These are the requirements.

That is great that you are a working family man, but that has no relationship to this issue. I was a working family man also and I used the research as a great educational tool to teach my children the sciences.

If your time is limited, how can you protect horned lizards? If you proceed on an illegal course of action and have horned lizards that are protected species without permits, you jeopardize your time and resources even more. And, just for the record here, I am not saying you are presently breaking the law.

If you think letters and hearings are fruitless, that is your opinion. Oh well.

If the things you could do legally have already been done, focus on things that have not been done. Meet the requirements and you can legally proceed. What is so difficult about that issue?

That is great if you want to start your own organization. That is one thing I did with starting the HLCS chapter in California. I am also working on establishing the Horned Lizard Research and Conservation Nature Center here in California, too. There is a lot of work to be done on conservation issues. One thing though, permits are still required.

Lester G. Milroy III

Lester,
Thanks for providing the list of requirements. They will help me for preperations next year. Do you keep any study HLs outdoors? For outdoor enclosures I have found the all screened enclosures work best 48 L X 24 W X 24 D turned long ways and plunged into the ground. Unlike the plywood cages, they do not block out mourning and late afternoon sun, which seems very beneficial to HLs. If done right large numbers of HLS can be kept with nutrition and scat cleanings being the only maintence.

Time might be short for me to help the CHLs in this area (the permit process takes a long time), If you are willing I will send the exact location planed for development, hopefully you can add some of these individuals to your study group before they are killed.