Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I am thinking about writing a paper for my college English class with the main topic being the terrible conditions that reptiles often endure in pet stores and what the public can do to stop this from occuring. I often hear of pet stores just "writing off" dead animals and therefore getting money back or replacement animals on these losses. But who are they writing the dead animals off to? distributors that they bought the animal from in the first place? some sort of insurance company? If anyone has some good links or thoughts, please let me know!

Thanks so much,
Marcie

I think it is pure business. On IRS taxes, you write your gross profits and the cost. The dead ones are egual to the cost of buying them. They are taxed on the Gross profit minus the cost, so they are not taxed for the dead ones. Hope this makes sense.

Cindy

another thing...have any of you ever owned a pet store and therefore know what you are talking about ? AND having been around in the " BIZ " for over 40 years...I have seen very many private collections in as bad or worse shape then pet stores confined animals ( in this case reptiles ). I DO NOT say that there are many pet stores out there that fall in the catorgory that the oringinal poster alluded to because there IS...but they are in public eye while the private sectore is not. Now does that make any sense ? Cast those stones but be aware that unless you KNOW for sure............having several pet stores in 23 some years ( no , not anymore in the business though )...where oh where do you all think that there is the " replacement animal" ? Now if you all have the time.......if certain reptile breeders and or organizations had come fourth many years ago and was kind enough to want to enlighten and or sale captive animals ( something else that I have done for over 40 years ), maybe, just maybe some of these store would or could of started out right and or progressed. But there was a CLEAR cut and dry scenario not to sale captive bred reptiles and knowledgment for years lacking from the reptile hobbiest and retail stores. We were forced to buy from wholesellers and importers ! Yes...things have changed now and retailers ( a lot ) have got the message but it seems to still lack in some of the chain stores and some of the small ( I hate to still use this term but ) MOM and POP stores. Just don't go around with a blanket statement relating to " ALL" ! I've heard this way to much in the past several years. I would make an wager that there are more pet stores that do the right thing than the other. Now if you all are only getting out to the " bad ones " and seeing those..I can't help that ! I would say if the latter is true....maybe take a little trip down the road and do a number count of comparision.

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )

I am honestly sorry to offend you. You are correct in what you say though. There are both good and bad pet stores out there. I have seen a couple of absolutely wonderful privately owned pet stores, and I have seen a few terrible privately owned pet stores. I have seen some terrible chain stores, while also seeing some very good ones.

I was planning on writing a section of the paper dealing with the caring stores though, too. Those that make sure new owners are made knowledgable about the care of their new pets. Those where owners and employees alike take a great deal of care for the animals they sell. The world is a place with a lot of variation. Nothing is the same anywhere.

I wanted to write this paper mostly for my English professor who made fun of me for writing a paper based around the care of uromastyx and showing that these animals take work. I basically want him to understand that knowledge and caring is the key to owning any pet. He doesn't seem very keen on believing that. The central focus of fixing the "problem" of bad pet stores in my paper, is to be about knowledge, understanding, and caring. No bad pet store will ever be changed by one person's knowledge. It is many people that must know, before changes can or will ever be made.

Overall, I really want to apologize to you. I didn't mean to offend at all. I would just like to be totally informed, before I write this paper, and place blame somewhere other than where it should be. If there are any tips you can give, please feel free. I have open ears.

Sincerely,
Marcie

either by e-mail or something. I had one of the biggest retail pet stores in the Kansas City areas called Noah's Pet World. Even though it was a full line pet store, we specialized in reptiles since that was my calling. There came a point where ( as i have related before on numerous reptile forums ) that we stopped the sale of imported animals and tried to stop selling wild caught. That is one of the many reasons that i got out of the retail part of it and went stricly breeding and for 6 years hit at least 2-3 reptile shows/expos per month. Of course there was a lot more critera for my closing all of my pet stores other than this. Now I haven't been retailing for 5 years but I have some of the most knowledge of the going ons of the retail pet store and especially reptiles in pet stores like, wholesellers, write offs, sick and dead animals, mark up ( not as much as been persieved folks ), expensis including overhead and employees, taxes ( a killer on employee taxes, sales tax, federal tax ),visits from local animal agencies, state agencies, animal rights activist, permits required, etc. If you can get past my bad spelling, drop me a e-mail.

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )

I agree with the last poster - I travel a lot on my job and try to check out "reptile" stores as I go. I have been in pet stores all over the country and have found some very good ones. Actually, the smaller ones trying to survive and compete with the "BIG GUYS" (chains) generally have the healthiest animals with proper setups and work to educate themselves to provide customer service. Now with that said another angle you may want to consider is how the "public" is helping to cause these poor conditions. I also am a breeder and exhibit at several reptile shows. I don't make a profit - I do it because I love it - I also do rescue and education, etc. Where I am going with this is - I have watched the quality of animals drop even at the reptile shows - why? Primarily because the public comes in and wants CHEAP - not quality. They will see healthy hand feed animals in really good shape and go over an buy 1/2 price 1/2 dead wild caught or hatchlings - because they are cheaper. I have had customers say to me - well I can get two from them for the price of one of yours so if one dies I am still ahead. Ussually the next month they are back and both have died. Don't get me wrong - just like the last guy said there are alot of really good breeders out there - but they are having a very difficult time surviving and putting in the extra cost for quality because the public is demanding cheap over everything else. Hense back to the chain stores and thier need to buy cheap to make a profit. It is a cycle and the important fix is to get the customers (public) to see if you want a healthy quality pet you will need to search and pay a little extra.

Oh so true and the statement about the customer was and still is "my kick in the pants ". You are very right in the common prospective buying public. All one has to do is look at eBay ! LOL ! No really.......I was apalled contantly by the lack-and-didn't-want-to-know-public buying reptiles in my store> I mean again, I couldn't STRONG ARM a customer into buying the right cage set up for a corn snake and all that would keep this animal alive for years and years. I think things have changed a little though.....now back to my peeve on some pet store. There were many that visited me because of our succes while in business. There were many that i sold my captive bred reptiles to. There were many that just didn't have the money for the captive bred, the right cages, the right heating appiance, even couldn't afford books on the particular animal. I saw this and tried to help. But some of these stores were barely surviving. It wasn't necessary thier fault. They were trying to make a living. Then there was the ones that just didn't care and should of been closed down but wasn't. I keep going back to the term of " supply and demand " ! Not only does this relate to retail but how about wholesale ?........

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )

Perhaps times have changed drastically, because I know a store that WON'T sell an animal to anyone who doesn't have the proper cage or a first time buyer unwilling to purchase the needed educational material or accessories. They refuse to sell wild-caught reptiles for ethical reasons. They refuse to sell iguanas, sliders, and Burmese pythons because they show up in rescue in such staggering numbers. They have adoptable animals from a rescue in the store. And those of us in the local herp community keep sending them customers left and right because of it. I personally will do an hour and a half round trip to stock up on filters, fish food, lights, and other various accessories from that store rather than purchase from the chain stores that are 15 minutes away, and have talked to others that travel even farther for the same reason.

This is the only pet store I'll recommend to anyone wanting to buy a reptile from a store. Even now, the "bad" stores with sick animals and poor husbandry - both in the store and what they tell their customers - far outweigh the "good" stores.

Katrina

stores ?....either they are like the ONLY one that you have stated or are all bad ? I don't think so. Now I wonder how long that " one " will stay in business. And I DO salute that one. In the Kansas City area there are approx. 38 per stores that sell reptiles. I know of at least 12 that are on the up and up on reptiles as far as caging, healthy species, etc. But even they , since they are in business , have to sell animals without proper associated items going out the door. I mean it's common sense if they want to stay in business. Now how does one NOT SELL or REFUSE to sell the proper related items to a prospective reptile customer. HOW do they prove that the customer doesn't already have the necessities at home or would want to buy them at another store ? You can buy other things like cages, heating, lighting , etc. at even some hardware stores and other non-pet stores and reptile expos. AND what if the "other stuff " is CHEAPER someplace else. Unless the store that you are recommending is in it for just a passing hobby and the owners are self-rich.....? Of course I do not recommend the import or wild caught ( again ) species being sold at the retail level. But once again I will keep that phrase of " SUPPLY and DEMAND !

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )

Ok. My 2 cents on this one. I work in a pet shop too, and along with 1 other guy, run the reptile department. I have to agree with people wanting cheap reptiles...no matter what. All the time, people come in and see our perfect, CB, 20x feeding ball pythons for $80 - $100 (depending on what breeder we get them from), and say 'well, I can go down the street to the other store and get a ball python for $30'. I ask them, and they KNOW the pythons that store sells are wild caught, and probably ridden with worms, but they just don't care. It's less than half of what we charge, and that's all they're concerned about. The couple times of the same customer in the store to buy mice, and their python is dead. We have, for the most part, stopped selling iguanas. We sold our last baby a week ago, and do not plan on carrying any more. We do sell, however, iguanas that are brought into the store by owners who do not want them anymore. We charge an estimate of how much food, electricity, bedding, etc. that the iguana has cost us, and that's it. We also won't sell things like burmese pythons, anacondas, retics, monitors, and the adoptee iguanas to anyone who doesn't know what they're getting into, and usually we sell them only to someone who's had experience with that animal or something similar (i.e. sell a burm to someone who's had experience with adult retics). We also won't sell an animal to anyone who doesn't have the proper equipment. IF they tell us they have a certain item at home from a previous pet, or they're going to get it somewhere else, we lay our faith in the fact that they're telling the truth. After all, as far as we're concerned, we're trusting them with the life of an animal we've taken nothing but the best care of. So there is a middle ground...just to let you know.
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and far out-weighs the hobbyist. At my last 9 year retail full line store that had over 2,000 square feet of reptile live stock and supplies, I tracked customers( I already knew this ) and prospective customers on reptile sales and supplies. They made up between 75% to 85% of the buying public ( non-hobbyist ) and the other was the true hobbyist since I belonged to several reptile societies and basically had the biggest reptile department in the Kansas City area. I see this number ( maybe slightly less though ) at reptile shows/expos as well. It was oh-so-true as to what the poster said of the post that I am replying to on the " down the street " cheaper and wild/import sales. The general reptile buying public is non-hobbyist and ( this may want to make some folks argue this point ) the driving wheel of this industry. So with this in mind, and with imports and wild caught and even the over breeding of some captive herps, these animals as with some tropical fish, etc. is still viewed as the throw away pet to many people that just don't want to spend the money or can't ( in which we all know should't therefore be keeping them ). We could inject the dumb and don't care, non-knowledgeable people in here I guess..........

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )