Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I now have 4 wonderful enthusistic feeding corn snakes. Although one is still on large pinkies the rest have graduated to large fuzzies/small hoppers. I was told by someone that once they can eat those they can handle rat pinkies. Is this a correct statement?
Which brings me to my next question. Is four corns enough to consider breeding a small colony of rats (thinking 1.2) for feeding my corns. My two smaller corns eat twice a week and the other two every 5 days (try keeping that straight without writting down) Would I save money by raising the rats? I can always freeze the pinkies until ready to use, and or supplement them with store bought frozen mice if they don't produce fast enough. How fast DO they reproduce?

I guess what I'm getting at is would I be producing rats faster then I can feed them off or not enough rats with that ratio? I don't want to get many more then 1.2 just becuase of the size of the tank needed and limited space. (I really need to get rid of some kids so I can have their room ) Would I really save any money by raising my own rats? I already keep fresh veggies, dog food/cat food/crickets/wax worms and other food around here for us humans and all my other animals that I can feed the rats so I don't think food for them is going to cost me all that extra. And I also have to keep aspen around for the snake enclosures so that's nothing really extra either. All I would need is the tank to keep them in, the screen, the water bottle. Are rats easy to breed? I know they smell less then mice do and actually, I kinda like rats so wouldn't mind having the breeders as pets per se.

What do you guys think..To breed or just keep buying mice/rats for the snakes. Which would save money? I already know buying saves time but it's getting expensive at .85 a mouse with all four eating two at a time.

Mind you, in all reality, I'll probably end up with more corns down the road.

Thanks in advance for the opinions.

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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

Rats produce about 12-18 babies per litter. Gestation is 23-25 days. Female rats are fertile from about 5 weeks of age though it's better to wait till they are 4-6 months old before starting to breed them. If they are too young, they won't have as many babies and the strain could lessen their lifespan.

Once old enough, rat females come into 'heat' every 5 days or so and usually can get pregnant 24 hours after giving birth. (best not to let this happen, to give each female a couple weeks after weaning of her current litter to regain lost fat etc.)

So with a 1:2 colony you could produce anywhere from 24-32 babies a month, if you remove all the babies not long after birth and give the females a week or two to adjust to the lost of their babies.

As your snakes get older and can eat larger rats then you will need more time between litters to 'age' the pups to the appropriate size. Maybe two colonies of 1:2 or 1:3 (in a rack system to save you space) would work better for the amount of snakes you have currently.

Put it this way, if you had extra space where you would not get bothered by the stinky things then yes breed them.

Rudy
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0.1 Rubber Boa
1.1 Eastern Hognose Snakes
2.3 Western Hognose Snakes
1.0 Durango Mountain Kingsnake
1.1 Woma's (new!)
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata
2.1 Leopard (Babcocki) 1.0 borrowed (thanks Bobby)
2 Plecos
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 African Dwarf Frog
1 Khuli Loach
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

It would not be practical to breed rats to feed a colony of Corn snakes. Small rodents are easier on their digestive system, pinkies/adult mice per snake size. Breeding mice is a more cost effective, productive goal. I feed all of my Corns and Kingsnakes mice, of which I breed my own Supermice. A species that live comfortably in lab boxes in a 1.3 ratio, produce up to 25 babies per litter until about the fifth litter, and the fact that the male never needs to be removed as he will not kill his own offspring. I have also found that I can swap pinkies to a nursing mother, whom I have removed pinkies from for feed, and the group will not reject them. I have enough lab boxes for breeding groups and cycling of old breeders to new breeders. I use lab blocks and Vita Hamster with Ice water to induce breeding and health. I use a baking plastic funnel filled with ice to run water into the water bottles. Cold water is a key to breeding. With eight groups of breeders I usually produce 400 mice a month no problem. Rats consume more and have less litters.

I dont' know how many snakes you feed, but 400 mice a month would be WAY too many for my 4 corns to eat. I realize that rats produce less babies. But they also smell less in my opinion. From the other post saying that a 1.2 ratio of rats would produce around 24-30 pups a month would be managable for the size of my collection. I guess my reasons for choosing rats over mice is..
1) I like rats better then mice personally, my opinion they are just more friendly. And I would rather have a few pet rats that supply babies as food. And I have a nice 96 quart Serilite box that I can convert into a rat bin with plenty of room.
2) Rats smell less then mice do. I don't have the option of keeping them in my garage, it's Colorado, they'd be frozen in the winter before they bred. (again, my opinion)
3) Litter sizes for the 1.2 ratio would be near perfect for the size of my collection. Overages if any wouldn't be excessive and can be frozen for future use for those "lean" months OR shortages can be easily supplemented by frozen mice from my local reptile shop (I wouldn't even begin to have the room or know what to do with 400 mice a month.)
4) Food expense would be little difference for me since I have large amounts of dry dog food and cat food on hand at all times, vegatables, fruits and meat scraps that rarely are entirely consumed by my family before they begin to go bad (which I also feed to my crickets and millipede)and etc.
5) I have heard from several sources that rats will produce better growth in corn snakes then mice will.

If my logic is faulty, please feel free to educate me. I'm always open to opinions. But I don't forsee me breeding mice, only buying them frozen in bulk if it comes down to it.
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

I agree with everything you have said and am curious to know if you get anymore information. Please e-mail me if you hear anything I might need to know. I am at the point of just setting up my first two rats to have some babies. I will let you know how it goes.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
0.0.1 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo - Moon
1.0 Rex - Pluto
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

I think you've answered your own question. at least the "should I or shouldn't I..." part. You have the room. You've done the research, you are prepared to care for the rats. You aren't even counting 100% on the rat pups being the sole source of food for your snakes (you seem very willing to supliment with purchased food). So...yeah, you should do it. It will definitely be cheaper. Even if your 1.2 group doesn't quite produce enough, you still won't be buying as much food as you are now. The one question that you haven't addressed is, will you be able to "off" the babies of your friendlier rats? If the answer is "yes" than what are you waiting for?

You're right, I pretty much did already know...but needed some reassurance that I wasn't doing something stupid. I already got the rats. Before I bought them I called up my step daughter who lives with us part time to make sure she wasn't totally scared of rats (she's not) and that she understood that while she was allowed to make friends with the rats, they were breeders and the babies were snake food, Period! She said she could deal with that as long as she didn't have to watch me "off" the babies or feed them to the snakes live, which I wasn't planning on doing anyways (feeind live). With the current size of my snakes, I'll be taking the pups probably the day after they are born and freezing them right away so moms can get started on another litter. So yes I can handle "doing in" the nice little babies (that sounds like I'm very cruel, but I'm not I swear!!!) I have done it in the past with mice. I don't care for it or in anyway enjoy having to end their lives, but I figure it's more humane then feeding them off live.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It's helped out a lot.
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

HOLD UP!!!!! I can't believe this post has been up this long and noone has mentioned this yet. In your original post, you mentioned you always have dog food/cat food, etc. DO NOT FEED YOUR MICE OR RATS DOG FOOD. Most dog foods carry Red Dye which is lethal to snakes. Remember, what you feed to your rodents will also be ingested by the snakes. There are some dog food brands that do not use this dye, but it is always better to be safe than sorry. Now I am not saying, if you feed your rats dog food, it will kill the snakes. I am saying, there is a chance. It is well documented, and there has been some articles in Reptiles Magazine about this over the past few years. My suggestion is to feed them Mazuri rodent chow from Purina. It is more expensive than dog food, but the rats and mice will be healthier because they will be getting a balanced nutritional diet. Your production rates should be higher as well. Sorry, I know this was not your original question, but I just had to offer some advise. A breeder close to me lost a couple of ball pythons early in the year, and the toxicology report showed high amounts of red dye. (Yes they did a toxicology report on a snake. Wouldn't you if you lost a pair of albino balls? $6,000 dead is alot of money) Anyways, best of luck.