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Hybrids, pures, market reality and other ramblings

Tony D Nov 10, 2003 01:58 PM

With few exceptions those who participate in the captive production of reptile on some level also participate in commercial herpetoculture. In my view, this market reality skews most of what we do. In the act of marketing it is inevitable that we take steps that differentiate our stock from that of others. In herpetoculture, there are many paths to product development. We line and or selective breed for traits that are aesthetically pleasing. We select for mild temperament and adaptability to captive conditions and foods. We actively search for and extract color and pattern mutations to create new, if only temporarily rare, phenotypes. The more recent trends to produce hybrids and "locality" pure specimens however represent diametrically opposed views of where the hobby is going. Both views have their champions and detractors but they like morph production and line breeding need to be viewed as simple methods of product differentiation if they are to be reconciled.

Jeff, Schofield recently brought up an interesting concept. In comparing the views of those who hybridize and those who feel pure is the way to go he brought up speed and consistency. Certainly from the perspective of bringing new phenotypes to market, hybridizers may do so with speed but the phenotypes are not consistent. Likewise, purists are slow to locate and develop distinctive locality based phenotypes but when they do they are generally pretty stable. I think this observation might hold a partial key to resolving the rift as it were between the two sides.

Putting it in the best light, hybidizers are proactive in their efforts to bring new and unique phenotypes to market. The problem, in the view of purists, lay in the reality that after the initial cross, hybrid phenotypes becomes unstable. It is quite common that after a very few generations that some offspring begin to look like "pure" examples of one of the parent species. The fear is that one of these might make its way into "pure" projects. What if however, hybrids phenotypes were both stable and easily distinguished from "pure" specimens? Would this negate much of the objection? If so, how many generations would it take to stabilize a hybrid phenotype? Not to insinuate that hybriders should work to this end but it is an interesting proposition and it isn't one without example. The beefalo, a buffalo/cow hybrid, has been developed into a stable phenotype that is now even considered purebred stock. Though I have positively characterized hybidization as proactive I could just have easily been negative and called it a short cut. This approach to reptile breeding shows, in my opinion, great potential. That however is not to say that it is or need to be an easy path. Through creative out crossing AND succeeding line breeding and culling distinctive new "purebred" strains of domestic herps might be developed. To my view, the current heap of indistinguishable mexicana X alterna X ruthveni X Pyro X triangulum X whatever hybrids, though neat, doesn't even hint of this potential?

On the purist side we see some level of preservation of natural phenotypes. Few would argue that preserving a wide selection of "pure" wild types doesn't hold value. However few would also argue that the current ad hoc status of these breeding efforts is capable of maintaining these types for anything but the short term. Without a specific effort among purists to develop a system to track and ensure the purity of their stock, locality breeding too will remain a contentious endeavor. In this light, it isn't the existence of hybrids that threatens the purity of locality stocks, it’s the lack of an agreed upon criteria for establishing the legitimacy of locality stock as well as a system for preserving and conveying this information. Consider this, even if hybrids were not on the scene, the "legitimacy" of locality stocks would still be threatened by the the presents of animals in the captive gene pool stemming from lines predating even ad hoc efforts to maintain locality information. In deed this is where most if not all the contention around locality stock now emanates. In writing this it has become clear to me that the burden of protecting the purity of locality stocks lay with the purists. Given the proper system no animal of hybrid (or generic) ancestry need find its way into locality projects. Given the proper system, these locality projects might also be maintained for the long haul. Developing such a system and therefore this market niche into something less contentious and more credible requires effort on those involved not on others falling in line with their views.

Replies (5)

Jeff Schofield Nov 10, 2003 11:13 PM

Tony, there is a good thread last year on the milksnake forum on locality animals and their burden(and a plea for representative genetic representation!).Milksnakes in particular could benefit from some crossing of known localities of differing ssp.to measure genetic drift using DNA....but what becomes of these and any other non-locale,non-specific hybrid? I had suggested before the culling of "non-phenotypic" hybrids from a line designed toward a specific phenotype...but my response was "one mans trash is another's treasure". I do think that "new"hybrid lines(morphs particularly)demand a higher price but that it should come at the price of these "non-phenotypic"representatives(culled!).But noone can be made to do it....and lets have GOOD conversations about hybrids please.It does take time effort and IMAGINATION to produce them and just because some of us choose not to doesnt mean that they arent valued in the community,Thanks,Jeff

Tony D Nov 11, 2003 07:09 AM

Culling seems to be the hobbies dirty little secret. As you know I'm pretty on top of it from a health perspective but I would find it hard to do so just because the animal didn't have the specific phenotype I was looking for.

As far as really working on these projects I think the thayeri X ruthven crosses are a great example of a complete hybrid project. Osborne and others have done some fantastic work migrating the ruthvens albino gene into selectively bred thayeri. The peach albino Steve posted was just awesome. I've often said I'm only interested in hybrids from a curiosity standpoint but I've been wrestling with getting those for some time.

BTW I wasn't trying to denegrate hybrids. My intention was to point out a potential direction these projects could go that might bypass some of the infighting. Sadly I think what another poster recently said is true. For the purists it isn't about the looks of the animal or how well the projects are done its just about purity! Personally I like all snakes particularly the ones that chatch my eye as more and more captive types are.

terryp Dec 01, 2003 05:34 PM

I read this forum now and then, but have never done a post so here goes. I always read or hear there's the two sides. There are the purists and the hybrids (I don't know what to call it). It seems easy to recognize the two views and committments. Why does it seem either side should have to justify it. Is there supposed to be a truce or something at the end of the tunnel? Both have proven at least from what I see enough to warrant what they view and commit to. Am I missing something? I really think that both sides have given rise to their existance and it will continue to be two sides. Maybe someone can help what I may or may not see. I know that there was a lot more resistance a few years ago when the purists voiced their opposition with the hopes of keeping hybrids from growing to the extent it has. I think from what I've seen that a lot of them have relized hybrids are here to stay and voice some of the things you mention Tony and Jeff. They want to make sure that hybrids are represented as hybrids. I don't know why you wouldn't. If I did a hybrid I would want everyone to know it. I'm throwing in this post and I hope it's not just repeating some old things for you. I may be way off and I apologize if I am throwing something out to mess up this thread. I just thought I wanted to say something after reading the other posts.

Terry Parks

>>Culling seems to be the hobbies dirty little secret. As you know I'm pretty on top of it from a health perspective but I would find it hard to do so just because the animal didn't have the specific phenotype I was looking for.
>>
>>As far as really working on these projects I think the thayeri X ruthven crosses are a great example of a complete hybrid project. Osborne and others have done some fantastic work migrating the ruthvens albino gene into selectively bred thayeri. The peach albino Steve posted was just awesome. I've often said I'm only interested in hybrids from a curiosity standpoint but I've been wrestling with getting those for some time.
>>
>>BTW I wasn't trying to denegrate hybrids. My intention was to point out a potential direction these projects could go that might bypass some of the infighting. Sadly I think what another poster recently said is true. For the purists it isn't about the looks of the animal or how well the projects are done its just about purity! Personally I like all snakes particularly the ones that chatch my eye as more and more captive types are.

Tony D Dec 03, 2003 10:21 AM

Terry glad to see some new blood jumping in. I agree the two sides will likely never reconcile and that neither should have to justify what it is they do to the other side.

What really got me into this is, as a purist, I was and continue to see a lot of mud slinging by purist directed not only towards hybrids but to generic and morph stocks as well. It has gotten to the point that many have no problem denigrating all of a breeder's stock if that breeder ever worked with hybrids or crosses.

The full point of my initial post was that the burden to maintain pure stocks lay with those breeders who want pure stock not with everyone else falling in line with their views.

The notion that a little more vision in the production of hybrids might be called for was a side item that would equally apply to ALL breeding projects.

mingdurga Nov 26, 2003 11:52 AM

The breeding of any hybrid/ morph is just part of the herp culture. No one is releasing their captive born back to the wild, especially ball python morphs and hondurans, etc. So why not experiment and have fun with the hobby. As long as breeders identify their brood as such. With all the laws banning this and that, who knows how much longer the hobby will last.

Mike

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