Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey, im new to Arrow frogs, and this foroum and i have a few questions.

1) what kind of Arrow frogs are best fit for a 10 gallon tall? nothing ive read so far specifies tank size!! and can i get them in canada (names, numbers or websites???)

2) EXACTLY how poisonus are these guys, like say a cat were to eat one (dont worry i dont even have a cat) and are they poisonous to the toutch (again dont worry i wouldnt be wanting to toutch it.)

3) can they eat small mealworms? or are they to big for them?

4) finally, do they need flourescent lighting? and could i use an incandescent hood with those new "energy saving" bulbs? will my plants continue to grow under those?

im still a few months away from making my final decision, but im planning on having a 10 gallon vivarium with sphagum (can't spell that!)moss and some non-toxic plants. and lots of curly willow branches to climb on (they look sooo cool!)
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1.0.0. Sneaky House Gecko
0.1.0. WTF (looking for a breeder male!)
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Hi Froggy:

Welcome to our forum. Let me give you a few answers while the other more experienced folks add on more:

1) what kind of Arrow frogs are best fit for a 10 gallon tall? nothing ive read so far specifies tank size!! and can i get them in canada (names, numbers or websites???) A: actually, just about everything in darts I've researched from the thumbnails to the larger Dendrobates or Phylobates are ok as a pair in the 10 gal. Many breeders use such a size for pairs. They'd certainly be more comfortable in something a little larger, but its not entirely necessary. Breeding will go on in this size as well. Of course the more animals you keep in one tank the larger the tank. General rule that I have seen used: 10 gal for the first frog, additional 5 for each additional frog. understory.com is in canada.

2) EXACTLY how poisonus are these guys, like say a cat were to eat one (dont worry i dont even have a cat) and are they poisonous to the toutch (again dont worry i wouldnt be wanting to toutch it.) A: The captive born(CB)are not poisonous. In the wild, the diet of a Dart is what produces the poisons. But in captivity, their diet is controlled so you won't be seeing stars. If a kid were to eat one, I'd be more concerned about other things...perhaps samonella?

3) can they eat small mealworms? or are they to big for them? A: The mini-meal worms are small enough for my Tincs. but my Thumbnails I'm not sure. The minis are 1/4 in. But meal worms are said to be too fatty for a staple. You'll need to culture fruit flies like the rest of us for a staple. Other treats could be Springtails, Aphids, ants, flour moth larve, whiteflies, silkworms, and now a new source being experimented with are the Milkweed bugs.

4) finally, do they need flourescent lighting? and could i use an incandescent hood with those new "energy saving" bulbs? will my plants continue to grow under those? A: to my limited understanding on the lighting issue, incandescent produces too much heat. Course in the winter that may be welcome but it will be hard to control in the hotter months. Many of us use Compact florescent for mostly the health of the plants. And I have found that the health of my plants actually affect my Tincs behavior. She is much livlier, bolder with a healthy bountiful growth.

Many breeder sites will go into more detail about all your questions so just point your browser to the top and a number of sites can direct you through your research.

Those energy saving bulbs are actually compact fluorescent bulbs but they usually give off too much heat because the ballast is in the base of the bulb. A 10 gallon is fine, but you will have more room for bigger plants in a 20 gallon high. The larger frogs such as tincs, and phylobates terribilis(spelling?) will probably be too large for a 10 gallon, even in a pair. Go to www.doylesdartden.com, they have lots of information, and www.saurian.net has some good caresheets but he is in the us so you wont be able to get any frogs from him. Like the person said ahead of me understoryenterprises is in canada.The basis of there diet should be fruitflies, but they can have flour beetle larvae every once and awhile along with termites, and springtails. I think the previous poster was reffering to flour beetle larvae when they were talking about mini mealworms.
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1.2 Leucomelas
1.1 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
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0.0.2 Citronella Tincs
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OK, thanks so much for the info and links. im actually in vancouver so the toronto breeders are just a little far away, as i would prefer not to ship clear across the country. but i assume there must be somebody with frogs in the greater vancouver area. we also have a cottage in washington so i think i am able to have them shipped there and then accompany them across the border is i find something i like in the usa. i have done this with fish so i assume it would be similar with frogs?
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0.1.0. Leo
1.0.0. Sneaky House Gecko
0.1.0. WTF (looking for a breeder male!)

Well if you can get them from us breeders than www.saurian.net has great frogs, and he is very helpful.
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1.2 Leucomelas
1.1 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.4 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.2 Citronella Tincs
0.0.3 Powder Blue Tincs (soon)

Hi: clarification: on the mini-mealworms, I did mean mini-mealworms and not flour moth larve. The mealworms are sold as a mini size on some reptile food sources. They are 1/4 in long and my Tinc. could eat it. My thumbnails ignored them.

I thought mealworms had too much chitin for the frogs to digest?
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1.2 Leucomelas
1.1 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.4 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.2 Citronella Tincs
0.0.3 Powder Blue Tincs (soon)

Hi There: I have heard that they have too much fat and should be fed sparingly. I had only used them to provide a variation on the diet and certainly would feed the ff as the staple. please let me know: Is there anything else about them that should be cause for avoidance in totality? thanks- Maggie

As long as there a treat, and your frogs are still healthy I would say keep feeding them. I know somebody that feeds really small superworms to his frogs and they breed like crazy.
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1.2 Leucomelas
1.1 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.4 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.2 Citronella Tincs
0.0.3 Powder Blue Tincs (soon)

who is trying their frogs milkweed bugs? as i understand it, a large number of these bugs are poisonus becasue they feed on the juices of milkweeds. so i am not sure if i would feed them to your frogs... also a lot of these insects advertise this with aposematic coloration, just like darts do. just thought i'd mention it, so i personally wouldn't feed them to my darts,

They are being experimented on by Tor Linbo. Supposedly, having good results, and the kind he is rearing supposedly eats the hearts of Sunflowers. They aren't supposed to have the poisons that their earlier counterparts have in feeding on on milkweeds...but the results remain to be seen. They are only in an experimental stage, and much discussion is happening about them on Frognet-check it out. I know Tor knows what he is doing though, and I'm sure he'll figure out the right way to breed this new food source. But, no..the regular Milkweed bugs are not to be fed to our precious gems and I brought this up too with the forum.

yeah, i actually just saw all those posts earlier today (after i posted the night before), thought it was funny that they were talking about the same thing. it sounds very interesting. they wouldn't have the poisons if they are a species that doesn't eat milkweed (or plants like milkweed that have toxins or what ever in them), so there would be no problem with feeding those ones. i would just hate to think someone goes out, collects some true milkweed bugs and then loses a frog due to the toxins in the bugs (from feeding off milkweed)... i would just feel bad not saying anything about it. but i wish tor the best, and hope that he has found a new food source to add to our darts diets.

I was lucky enough to get a culture of the milkweed bugs at Frogfest. So far, so good. They are non toxic because they are fed sun flower seeds - no shell/salt etc! Hatch to adult is roughly 40 days and many eggs are deposited. The culture of them seems fairly easy. Transfer of bugs to tank in an efficient and timely manner needs developing. While I don't think they will threaten the Fruit Fly market- lol-, it is nice to have an additional food source. In speaking with Tor, any wild caught frog might shy away from the bright red bug. However, CB frogs should not shy away from the bugs due to their coloration.

hey jon, so the ones that tor is selling are still red and black, or what? cause you think they wouldn't eat them due to the warning colors... especially since they use the same tactics lol. have you tried to feed them to your frogs yet? lastly, is tor shipping any of these yet (how much did they cost?), or are they just staying on the west coast and we here on the east get to be jealous about one more thing lol.

He did not have many cultures. In fact, it was more like a kit with some eggs. As I said, so far, so good with mine. I'm sure they will make their way into the hobby, but as I mentioned how well they produce and how easy they are to feed off in a timely manner will be the factors that limit/excel their distribution in the hobby. Currently, my eggs have just hatched, so I am not feeding off any of the bugs. All bugs will be placed in new starter cultures in an attempt to culture them in other ways - - play around with the variables - heat, moisture, light. According to the care guide, female will lay around 30 eggs per day and about 2000 in their lifetime. I think Tor's cultural set up is simple and good, but with my collection currently at 2o tanks and growing, I want to figure out a quick means to get them out of the culture and into the tanks. FFs are easy - tap the cup over the tank or over a larger cup so you can add your supplement. In the culture of these insects, you can't do that. The water and sunflower seeds need to be kept separate to prevent mold/rot. The cup can't be tipped because the seeds would go everywhere. There needs to be something inside the culture that the insect can crawl on which would be easy for you to pick up and tap the bugs into you tank.

I have used these for a while... they are not a 'strain' or a different species - just bugs that I collected outside and I reared the offspring on sunflower and pumpkin seeds. Anyone can do it, you don't need kits from Tor just go catch them yourself. Also, there are many resources on the WWW about culturing these guys and most universities culture them. I glue the seeds onto index cards with Elmer's white glue. The young congregate on the cards to feed and then I remove the cards and tap them over the tanks. It works well for me.

Where in Canada do you live? There are some Canadian Breeders near me (toronto):

-Ron Jung (http://community.webshots.com/user/ronjung)
-Phil Ramos (Search the archives for his email)
-Dhilshad Khan (Search the archives for his email. Not sure if hes breeding though)
-And as mentioned, Mark Pepper

These are just some top breeders near/in toronto though.

M.N