Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My 3 yr old red's right side of her face and and down into her neck is completely swollen. It is swollen mostly in her gums. It doesn't look like mouth rot, as there is no cheesey substance. It, to me, looks like an abscess. Perhaps as she was swollowing a prey item... could a claw could have gotten stuck in her throat and scratched it and gotten infected?
I do not feed live, only f/k f/t... any ideas? I am taking her to the doctor tomorrow, she is still eating so it can't be THAT bad.

unfortunately, there is only so much we can tell you without having the snake in front of us.
Even a vet couldn't tell you that much, say...over the phone with this description.

if infact the interior of the mouth did get "scratched" by say a rodents teeth, nails, etc... which seems like something that very well could happen, then feeding it still is not going to help it. you would only be opening the wound more, if the snake was forced to stretch its mouth open to swollow prey.
So i would cease anymore feeding till you figure out whats causing the swelling.

it could very well be an abscess.
Which are usually caused by a secondary bacterial infection "usually" due to bad husbandry and unsanitary conditions.
Now im not doubting your husbandry here, but things like spot cleaning substrate, long intervals between water changes, water bowls on/under heating elements, water bowls just rinsed and refilled, rather then scrubbed with soap twice a week, same with enclosures/rubbermaids, temps too high/low, are all things that can turn a simple scratch/wound into something much more serious.
You cant see bacteria, and even when husbandry is percieved as top-notch, these organisms can and will grow.
Chances are, if it is a secondary infection of gram-negative bacteria, it probably came from the water, seeing that its internal. it could be as easy as travelling through feces/urine and tracking it into the water then drinking it.

Im not sure how your keeping it, but id advise you to keep it in something like a rubbermaid (easily cleaned), with very good ventilation (hot humid environments help bacteria grow), plastic or no hide, paper towel substrate, and a ceramic/plastic water bowl.
All of this changed and scrubbed daily till your done whatever treatments and things are all healed up.

you'll obviously want to get a bacteria culture, sensitivity test, and the aid of a vet to check inside the mouth for starters. the fact that it sounds like its "spreading" down the vertebrea is what is scaring me, as a smaller more "simple" abscess would be somewhat easier to contain and extract the inflammatory debris.

Im hoping you have a very good vet, because it seems like you might need some sort of anesthetic surgery if antibiotics and treatments dont work.

goodluck!

grant vg

Thanks Grant...
We just got back from the vet and she really did not know what caused the "inflammation". There is no abscess, just really inflamed. she thinks it may be an allergic reation to something, but what I don't know. We got a shot of Baytril in case of any infection and a shot of some steroid for the inflammation.
She says it does not look bactarial and there is no mucous anywhere. My snakes are like children to me and I keep them in sterile environments ( as sterile as can be). I am very meticulous with my bloods. And I do keep them in well ventilated plastic boxes on newspaper with plastic water bowls and hides. One thing I don't do is play when it comes to the health of my babies.
Thank you so much for your input, you were very helpful.
Hopefully this treatment will work and we wont have to do anymore. Bloods DO NOT like to get shots! She is a fat lazy slob normally, but get the doctor near her and she freaks!

Hey amy,

Glad to hear its not an abscess.
i was doing some reading yesterday on things that cause inflammation and heres an exert from one of my books.

its long and has alot of big scary words, but perhaps it might be something to bring to your vet if this inflammation persists.
ive leanred that it cant hurt to bring your own info and research into the vets office, even if it ends up being waaay off (which isn't always the case..

"Heterophilic inflammation is characterized by the predominance of heterophils that represent greater then 80% of the inflammatory cells. Heterophilic inflammation is usually indicative of an acute inflammatory response, because macrophages migrate into the inflammatory lesion within a few hours of onset, creating a mixed cell inflammation. Heterophilic inflammation demonstrating degenerate heterophilsis indicative of severe irritation and a toxic microenvironment, such as that created by bacterial toxins. Cytoplasmic features of heterophils indicative of degenerative changes include increased cytoplasmic basophilia, vacuolation, and degranulation. The nucleus of degenerate heterophils often undergoes hyalination and swelling, karyorrhexis, or karyolysis. Septic heterophilic inflammation is indicativd by the presence of bacterial phagocytosis.
Mixed cell inflammation is the most common type of inflammatory response in reptiles. This type of inflammation is represented by an increased number of mononuclear leukocytes in the inflammatory response. Heterophils usually represent greater then 50% of the inflammatory cells; however, there is an increased number of macrophages, lymphocytes, or plasma cells. The heterophils in mixed cell inflammatory responses are usually nondegenerate, suggestive of a low degree of irritation and a microenvironment free of microbial toxins. Most bacterial and fungal infections of reptiles begin as heterophilic inflammation that progresses to a granuloma formation within a few days. The granulom develops with a central mass of necrotic heterophils that stimulate a foreign body-like response, attracting macrophages to the lesion. The speed at which this occurs in reptiles is temperatur dependent.
Macrophagic inflammation is represented by a predominance of macrophages (>50% of the inflammatory cells). Macrophagic inflammation can be associated with a chronic inflammation or certain diseases, such as infections caused by microbacteria and tissue-invasive metazoan parasites. multinucleated giant cells are often associated with macrophagic inflammation in reptiles and can appear within hours of onset of certain inflammatory diseases, and therefore, their presence does not necessarily imply chronicity." (Mader 1996, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery"

I have a few questions myself.
How long of a period was it from when she looked normal and healthy to her condition now?
also, are you able to get some side/aerial photos of this?

Ive treated a few respers in the past, and i aggree, they HATE needles!!

gvg

Grant,

I just got back from work and the inflammation has gone down considerably... I really don't know if a pic would help you tell anything anymore. She was given steroids and they seemed to work. If there were any bacterial problems, wouldn't Baytril get rid of it?
I will still get a pic if you like, but I honestly don't think it will help. Anyhow, I am going to go through every word of the document you sent me and decipher the "code" for myself as I do not have more then a year of Biology
You know, you are awesome. Thank you so much for the responses and acting like you care a little. I feel dumbfounded sometimes when I don't know what is going on with my animals. I feel... impotent (no pun intended).
If her face is still swollen in the morning then I will definitely get you a pic, but I really don't want to put any undue stress on the girl as she has already endured a rough day as it is... poor thing.
Once again thank you,

amy Green

Amy,

glad to hear the swelling has started to go away.
Dont worry about the pic if its too stressful on your snake. it wasn't necessarily for a prognosis, more just for future reference and curiosity.

you said you used a steriod?
is it possible you could find out the name of it?
hope all is well in the morning.

grant