Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a friend that thought he owned an albino alligator when I checked it out the gator was a white yellow in color yet his eyes were dark blue. My question is this gator albino or leusistic? Also what would he be worth?

how about posting a photo of it and your friend together so we can be sure we give you the proper answer to your question.

I'll try to get a pic.. He is about 6ft long,this guy farms gators in fl has about 60,000 gators on this farm. He bought this farm about 2 years ago to secure a supply of hydes for a boot company he owns.. Its really an efficient operation. I'll see if I got some pics from my last trip over there..

>>I'll try to get a pic.. He is about 6ft long,this guy farms gators in fl has about 60,000 gators on this farm. He bought this farm about 2 years ago to secure a supply of hydes for a boot company he owns.. Its really an efficient operation. I'll see if I got some pics from my last trip over there..
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

According to the statistics in the linked reference there are only 87 thousand alligators on 19 farms in the whole state. That leaves the other 18 farms with an average of 1500 each, including hatchlings. What is the name of the farm your friend owns, I will definately put it on my list of places to visit the next time I'm there?
Florida Alligator Farming Statistics - 2002

The owner of the farm is Paul Calcatera he has since purchased another farm w/ approx 13k animals he had to cull them all since they had some sort of disease. I stand corrected though his inventory runs around 40 thousand animals. He is not open to the public and yes he is the biggest gator farmer in florida its located on hwy 441 in North Okeechobee fl,If you are serious and want to check it out I'll call Paul and see if he'll give you a tour. As soon as I figure out my new digital I'll post the white gator along with some cool shots of the farm. We hog hunt on the farm and I have some great shots feeding the entrails to some of the big bulls.

I would absolutely want to check it out. I wouldn't rush to clear it for me though, it will probably be another two years before I get there again.

Where all the best fairytales are told (sold).

Never heard about this farm in Nt.Okeechobee, but would also love to check it out at my next Fl-vacation.
But, sorry: I am still in doubt. 40.000 gators means nearly Samutprakarn size....
Ralf

I also had my doubts about the original post and poster (Hairyback - Please understand that we get lot of people making claims here so we tend to be a little skeptical) so I did some checking. The following links provide evidence the this person does have the farm and it is certainly within his financial ability to support such an operation. 40k gators seems like an awful lot to me too but who knows, It seems that Cowtown Boots is a large enough operation to support having that many. The one piece of information that I was unable to find was a breakdown of the numbers by individual farms.

http://www.elpasoinc.com/Archive/99_05_09/buzz.html

http://www.fl-alligator.com/leathnov.htm

http://www.cowtownboots.com/

http://www.citi-guide.com/texas/elpaso/ep-sb-boots.asp

Thanks, Bill, just checked the links.
Yes, there seems to be a potential, but I really hate the use of rattlesnake hides for leather production. I searched for C.adamanteus during 26 herpetological vacations in Florida and never found one in the wild...Its only one example, but many other rattlesnakes are also rare because of habitat destruction AND hunting.

I'm not a fan of removing animals from the wild (except in very controlled conditions) so I agree with you.

As for Florida, while you might not be able to find that rattlesnake, you should be able to find plenty of Burmese pythons, Nile monitors, Cuban anoles, Spectacled caiman and a whole variety of other wildlife eagerly jumping in to ake it's place - it's a very sad situation.

Bill

Bill, I have to agree with you on that..It is a very sad situation down here..I've got a family of Cuban Anoles living in my front yard not to mention a bunch of wild Green Iguana's running all over the place...I live about 20 miles from the Everglades national park and visit there quite a bit and I remember in the days you could walk down one of the trails and sometimes you would see a beautiful Indigo snake crawling through the grasses down there and now if you see one it's a bigtime event...Cape Coral on the other coast is being over run by Nile monitors..We got non-native birds all over the place, Cockatoos, Conures, Quacker parakeets and now and then you'll see a macaw...A lot of those birds come from unresponsible owners and most of them are the fallout of hurricane andrew..I know metro zoo lost a TON of exotic birds during that storm...One of the curators at metro zoo once told me, If You only knew whats running loose down here in florida you would be scared to death to go out in the woods..He told me stories of cobra's being loose down here although I haven't heard of any being sighted or captured, but we hear about pythons being caught on a regular basis here...Spec caimens?..Seen a bunch of them..They have set up home down here and that worries me because of the American Crocodile population being so critical that the caimen are one day gonna wipe out what few hatchlings survive here not to mention god knows what else is being introduced down here..Nile Crocs seem to be popular here in captivity and I do not doubt if in the next 20 years we get a growing population of those guys here and then got real troubles..Sorry for the long post, I guess it's my way of blowing off steam about whats happened here..Ralf, if your looking for some good spots to see some Eastern Diamondbacks, Try the Sarasota/Myakka area on the west coast..I used to have people call me on the phone when I lived over there quite a bit to come and remove one from thier yard..lol..Them and pygmy rattlers..Mean lil bastids..hehe

Thanks, but Myakka is of course one of my favorite places down there. I found many pigmys, but never one diamondback.
I totally agree with you and Bill. The situation in Florida seems to get critical.Cuban anoles are much more common than Anolis carolinensis and I also saw the bunch of caimen near Homestead. I very interested to know what happens against the monitor population, which are also dangerous for crocodilian offspring etc.
Ralf
Link

Funny, a friend of mine and I were just talking about this the other day. Do Florida game laws protect non-native populations? Would it be illegal to try and trap them and euthanize them? The last thing I want to see is Nile monitors causing a decline of the American croc population.

I will be down at Turkey Pt working for 3 weeks in March and was hoping to try to catch a few Ctenosaurs on Key Biscayne. Gee, you'd think some of the reptile importers would try to capture some of these exotics for their inventory rather than buying from overseas......well, but then again, it would be too much work and it's cheaper to buy imports for a few pennies.

How frequently do alligator trappers catch caiman, and are they allowed to euthanize them? What actually happens to the capture animal?

Matt,

Florida wildlife laws don't protect exotics. You can collect all the exotic herps you want like monitors, iguanas, anoles, braminy blind snakes, etc. but not crocodilians unless you've got a permit. A licensed gator trapper can catch them and kill them or give them to anyone with a permit to keep them. A licensed nuisance wildlife trapper can catch them as well. Anyone else can catch them if they've got the Class I (crocodiles, gavials, black caimans) and/or Class II (all other crocodilians) croc permits from our wildlife commission. These are the 2 permits needed to keep crocodilians here and if you've got them you can keep, breed, sell, exhibit, and catch the non-native ones if you like. I'm not sure how often gator trappers catch them. It really depends on if they're working in an area that has a decent breeding population like down around Homestead. What happens to an exotic croc after it's caught depends on who catches it. If a gator trapper wants he can kill it or find someone with the permits to keep it. The game commission does the same thing. If one of their officers catch one and they know a person or place with the permits they'll try and place the animal.

So there's no real concerted attempt to try to remove exotics?

When i was at Turkey Pt in 2000, Joe Wasilewski mentioned to me that he'd actually found a Siamese croc( i believe in the canals but it may have been in the surrounding mangroves) and that a cuban had been found as well, though with the latter, it wasn't inconceivable that it hadn't swam across the straits from Cuba. The Siamese, however, was an exotic turned loose. I could see where capturing and placing a Siamese croc would make sense(Metrozoo has/had them in 2000) but for the invasive caiman species, I could understand if they simply euthanized them.

I would like to see something done to eliminate the wild nile monitor population. Hey, even if they imposed a "tax" on the reptile dealers, maybe they'd think twice before selling all these caiman to every tom, dick and Harry who wants one for a pet.

"When i was at Turkey Pt in 2000, Joe Wasilewski mentioned to me that he'd actually found a Siamese croc( i believe in the canals but it may have been in the surrounding mangroves)"

Was this one that could have been around for awhile - like from hurricane Andrew? It's hard to imagine someone letting a species that is as endangered as the Siamese loose on purpose. Heck, how would someone even get one? I would imagine the costs would be enormous! Now a breeding population of Cubans..... that'll get peoples attention

"but for the invasive caiman species, I could understand if they simply euthanized them."

They are attempting to control new releases with the new ESA requirement..... unfortunately a bit too late for south FL. I agree though that there should be a push for irradication. I spoke with the USWFS officer in charge of enforcement of laws (at the federal office) a couple of years ago about clarification of the US spec caiman status, and asked him why they targeted spec caimans and not other crocodilians that could result in the same invasive species problem. His answer was the funding for the USFWS is low and that they can only do one thing at a time. He indicated that all that will be coming down the pike though. Unfortunate for the legitimate keepers.

"I would like to see something done to eliminate the wild nile monitor population. Hey, even if they imposed a "tax" on the reptile dealers, maybe they'd think twice before selling all these caiman to every tom, dick and Harry who wants one for a pet.

What about laws similar to how hazardous chemical spills are handled? The company responsible for the spill (escapes) pays for the clean-up? Too hard to prove I suppose...

Bill

Bill, I couldn't tell you where the Siamese came from....it's possible it was an escapeee from Hurricane Andrew. I simply do not know.

Yeah, I agree, many policies regarding crocs/hot snakes could be done in parallel with the way haz mat regulations are enforced. We have permits for radioactive materials, and I see so many parralels in how the haz mats and hot snakes are controlled, that it very well would work.

Of course, then you'd get PIJAC and the dealers against it, which would probably squash it.

Actually, Siamese Crocodiles are very affordable..They are only endangered in the wild but are plentiful in captivity and you run across a breeder now and then who is looking to get rid of some of his excess croc babies...I own a siamese and a siamese cross breed and the full blooded siamese only cost me $250.00 as a 2 month old hatchling..Finding a wild one in the glades does not surprise me..In fact finding anything down there anymore doesn't surprise me...Metro zoo has a hybrid croc that was caught wild down there and it's a Cuban/American mix..Only thing I can figure out is, One of it's relatives built a raft and escaped cuba and met a cute American croc..OR..One or the other somehow got caught in a tide and ended up on shore..A family of cuban crocs in the glades?...No thank you..But boy it sure would help the fish population grow down there as hardly anyone would be down there fishing!...LOL

I can't say that there isn't a real attempt to remove exotics but there isn't one that I know of. I think that exotics are removed whenever the opportunity or need arises. Need typically being someone complaining to the wildlife comm. that a specific animal has become a nuisance. I'd like to see a real effort to eliminate monitors and caiman as well.

I think there have been a few siamese crocs taken from the ponds on the Miami Int'l Airport property in the last few years but none have been large. I haven't heard anything about a cuban being found. If you could get more info on that I'd really like to know more specifics. Last year during the alligator egg collection in Lake Okeechobee, surprise, surprise baby caimans came out of some of those "gator" eggs. In 2002 5 crocs between 4 1/2' and 6' showed up swiming along the coast here in Palm Beach Co. All 5 were caught. I saw 3 of them that a friend caught. Two looked more or less like acutus but 1 looked rhombifer "ish". DNA testing was done on all 5 since it was a bit strange to have 5 croc show up on the same day in the ocean scattered up and down the coast all north of where acutus live. Maternal DNA showed that all 5 have rhombifer heritage and are not related to Florida acutus.

I think you e me at work about going to the farm this weekend my server at work went on the blink so try me tommorow, My 25yr old nephew is heading up and if you hook up with him you get some real close face time with the white gator as well as his big brothers.
Bob

Hi guys;

I'm just a Canadian that vacations in south Florida every fall, I always stay with friends in Venice, I found a 4 foot Eastern Diamondback on Greencove Road in Venice. I REALLY wanted to see an Indigo, saw about 2 feet of what I'm certain was 1 in Myakka State park either that or a black racer on steriods. I have 3 Indigos @ home & to see one in the wild would be pretty temtping but at the rate that guy was moving catching it would have been impossible. Besides the resorts in Florida are much nicer than the jails ;-0

But you guys can consider Venice area for some good field herping......... seeing as I'm posting in the 'Croc Forum' maybe you could answer a few ?'s for me......

1. What would a Leucistic Alligator(like the 1 in New Orleans Aquarium) cost???? Donm't worry not looking to buy 1 just curious.

2. Are Culviers Dwarfs (P. Palpebrosis) fairy easy to keep & manage??

Thanx guys

Dean

Ralf,

26 trips and not one diamondback? Have you tried herping up in the panhandle in and around the Appalachicola National Forest? I think finding one up there come spring is a guarantee if the weather right. Where I live (south FL) we used to average around 2 per year, sometimes more but now that there's more houses there are far less adamanteus. I got one on Sunday over in a housing development that's under construction. Don't feel too bad. To put it in perspective, I've found far more eastern indigos than diamondbacks. I usually find adamanteus when I'm not looking for them. In most areas even in seemingly good habitat they aren't easy to find.

I see that you have done some home work about Pauls farm...
I guess the least I can do is figure how to post some pics of the place and the white gator...

Yeah, I guess that trait (research) is one of my defining characteristics.

If you don't have a photo host, I would post them for you if you email them to me.

Bill

How do I send these pics? their in my documents File...

just attach them to an email and send them my way. Click on my name in the message box to compose the email or it's mngatorguy@msn.com If they are in a document, I can extract them and post them using one of my photo hosts to store them.

Bill

If you got those pics post them please Bill,If not let me know.