Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum here. I wanted to post pics of my 72 gal. Bow Front Paludarium. The tank has been up and running for over a year now.

The tank houses:
Land:
1 - D. Leucomelas (m)
1 - D. Azureus (m)
1 - D. Tinc (m)
3 - Anoles (2f/1m)
1 - House Gecko
1 - Fire Belly Newt

Water:
2 - Gourmies
1 - Cory Cat
2 - Dwarf Water Frogs
many Neon Tetras and Long Fin Zebra Danios

Let me know what you think.

Tim

Well, it is a nice tank. As for mixing species, ill say 99% of us are against it. Mixing darts maybe. Mixing them with anoles, Id have to say no, their climate needs are different. And anoles get very aggressive while eating, have you ever seen one bite at another tank mate? I have heard of experianced folks putting in certain geckos (not sure what kind) in with success, but they are highly experianced. And they firebelly newt... If i remember right they are as toxic as a FBT. If one of the other animals get a nice lick in, or bite. It can be death from toxins. And it seems for that many animals that is a awful small land area.

The water area does seem awful deep. and from what i can see i see no easy way for the frogs to get back on land. Darts can swim, but they arent the greatest at it.

I know you will get defensive, which you have every right to defend your set up and such. If you do a search on the net for mixing amphibians/repitles you will find way many more disaster stories then success storys. There was one member from this board (and for the life of me i cant remember, i think they were in the frog forum...) They had a mixed tank for nearly two years. Every thing seemed fine then one day he came home and all of the animals were dead.

Im not trying to rag this, I am just stating the facts as I know. It is a beutiful setup but all the species and the depth of the water makes a very big hazard.

aj
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Here is my new image hosting site! I have made it Bigger, Stronger, Faster!
kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

I would like to know the details of your filtration and if that is a sump under your tank and what you are using it for. what is the plant life in the sump. How long has it been set up? It seems as though you are having a great time with it. you will get a lot of opposition in this forum but this is your hooby and it has to be satisfiing for you. the only thing is if you do make mistakes and suffer fatalities then make the changes necessary so it won't happen again. Many out there have sustained mixed tanks for many years. and then some maintain single species habitats only. some keep their herps in plastic shoe boxes with paper towel only. some herpers only care about bragging rights of how many species they maintain. They all started somewhere and learned somehow. Sceptics and sinics I say, you find one of each everyday. Have fun, be responsible in your husbandry and learn from your mistakes, don't be hard headed. Don't forget i would like the details of your filtration system. how it's routed as well.
Thanks,
Sascha

I would be very interested with more details on your sump, filtration, plumping as well. What do you like, dislike etc.

I really like this setup you have. Just ignore the people that give you crap for it, especially if they have only been in the hobby for a few months. If it works for you, and you are responsible enough to do, then I say go for it. I doubt 99% are against it, I am going to do something similar with a really nice tank when I have more room someday. Thanks for the nice pic, and welcome to the forum. I dont post much, but just wanted to let you know that I think what you have done is awesome. Just to make sure that you are not bombarded by "supposed experts."
Take care,

tonysly
1.1.tads Ole Maries
1.1.tads Brazilians
1.1.froglets.tads C/R Auratus
2.1.froglets.tads Leucs
1.0.3 Aurotaenia

I said it was a nice tank, and i really do like it. I am just voicing concern for a mixture of possible "problem animals". For example he firebelly newt (correct me if im wrong, they have as much toxins as FBTs right?). If that makes me one of the "people that give you crap", then that should be my title. I probibly did over exagerate the 99% against it, ill say a good number of forum regulars (not the people that pop in and out and just read instead of giving good information) are against it.

Tony, i see it was easy to point me out and call names, but I see you didnt seem to try and correct any of my statements since it seems im just a inexperianced "supposed experts." I figure my percentage was wrong as stated above but to the best of my knoweledge every thing I said was true. If it isnt please point it out so i wont make that error in the future.

aj
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Here is my new image hosting site! I have made it Bigger, Stronger, Faster!
kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

Yeah, it's a pretty tank, but I can't imagine the amount of land space that's provided being enough for that many animals.
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Randy

First off I would like to say you chose a nice size tank to mix the number of species that you did. I Don't know wether he chose to have all male frogs but he did which gives him no chance of any of the frogs crossbreeding, thus this is a perfect example for all newbies wishing to mix. Your tank is awesome and I think it lays down perfect guidlines for anyone planning on mixing any Dendrobates (I am opposed to any mixing but if you choose to mix his tank should be what you strive for).
1. you chose tank in excess of 70g
2. His frogs are all the same sex, and the fact they are all male means they are less likely to fight
3. Other animal requirements are met, since he has so many different micro-biomes in the tank
4. No one can eat each other (but I have a picture of an anole eating an imitator if any wants to suggest otehr frogs >=/)
5. it looks awesome

Danny
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

I don’t know why everybody is so worried that somebody will flame him. He has a large tank, with few animals in it, and seems to be doing a good job of managing it. The only thing I would be concerned about is the darts having difficulty getting out of the water if they fall in, and the possible toxins of the newt (which may not make much of a difference due to the large water area). I personally would not set up a tank like this because I don’t believe that mixing species is in the best interest of the animals MOST OF THE TIME, but in this case it seems to work. To each his own.
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0.0.5 Blue Dendrobates Auratus
3.2.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Hymenochirus boettgeri)
2.2.0 Asian Floating Frogs (Occidozyga Lima)
1.1.0 White's Tree Frog (Litoria caerulea)

Cool set up. How long did it take you to set the whole thing up? Most people in the hoby do agree about not mixing but if you control breeding then your all set. Anyway just wanted to congratulate you on your great set up. Keep us posted with any of your other projects.
thanks
ADAM

I have to say nice looking tank. I keep a mixed tank as well (for over two years now), with Red-eyed leaf frogs (Agalychnis callidryas), two Dendrobates auratus, one D. tinctorus, and two Phyllobates bicolor, and I am about to add D. azureus and D. leucomales. Let me just say now I have mixed genders and what goes on in the tank stays in the tank; if tads come to be, so be it I'm not getting envolved.

Here is my only concern, the anoles eating the darts (it happens). Check out http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e01.html He has kept a mixed tank for a while and tryed anoles, and has some good advice on the subject.

If you want to see mine got to...
http://www.wildsky.net/vivarium/jhupp031014.htm

It might give some ideas for more plants (if you are intrested).

Jay Hupp

I went to great lengths when setting up my terrarium recently to convince myself of getting only one type of PDF. It was very hard. One thing that attracts us all to these frogs are their beautiful colors, and why limit yourself to just one type of frog, right? I myself wanted blues, greens, and yellows!

Well, in the end I decided, I am not the type of person willing to sacrifice either eggs, tadpoles, nor baby frogs. I just can't bring myself to do it. But you must be prepared to do just that if you plan on keeping mixed PDF's. The only other option, which is a bad one, is to have a tank completely filled with little frogs, which is cruelly stressful to them.

What you absolutely cannot and must not do is attempt to trade, sell, or otherwise pawn off the offspring of these mixed frogs. If you do so, you are committing fraud. When people buy these frogs, they assume that they are of good pedigree. What do I mean? Well, when I breed my blue and black auratus frogs in a few months, I in no way expect to see little green, yellow, or other color froglets as their babies. (due to recessive traits). If I that were to happen, I would be very unhappy with my supplier, as I hope would anyone else.

These rare frogs must be kept of pure bloodline. Otherwise nothing will be left one day except one species of mutt PDF's. Nobody wants that.

Do everyone a favor, if you keep mixed frogs, make sure you sacrifice them or keep them to yourselves. I am a new PDF owner, but quickly realized the potential danger to the hobby. We thank you in advance.

Kevin H.

If you looked closer all three darts are males so no eggs could come out of this. Pulse i believe it was said in the post that the tank was has been going for a year now so i really don't see much of a problem with the dart aspect.

If you looked closer you would see that kevinhnc was responding to jhupp's post. jhupp said that he keeps both sexes of multiple species of darts in the same enclosure, and admits that there is a chance of them interbreeding.
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0.0.5 Blue Dendrobates Auratus
3.2.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Hymenochirus boettgeri)
2.2.0 Asian Floating Frogs (Occidozyga Lima)
1.1.0 White's Tree Frog (Litoria caerulea)

sorry about that my fault

bgkast,

What do you think about introducing one or two Asian Floating Frogs? It seems like an ideal set up for them and size wise I think they should be compatible and occupy a separate nitch in the tank.

Do you know where to get captive bred AFF's?

Tim

I think they would work in there. You would need to add a bit of floating cork bark for them to rest on, but as long as there is no chance of the fish nibbling on their toes I don’t see a problem with adding a few. I got mine from a local store, and I think that they are wild caught. I am trying to breed them, but I think it will be awhile before I get any eggs. I know of a person that ordered some online, and I could try to find the site they ordered them off of if you are interested.
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0.0.5 Blue Dendrobates Auratus
3.2.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Hymenochirus boettgeri)
2.2.0 Asian Floating Frogs (Occidozyga Lima)
1.1.0 White's Tree Frog (Litoria caerulea)

This was in response to JHupp not Timsviv.

I don't want to make any enemies here, but really I'm not stupid enough to think males can reproduce by themselves, and I do actually read the posts before I reply.

Thanks.

Kevin H.

Whoops, I posted the above before I read the replies beneath it, sorry about that, disregard the above

Kevin H.

Like I said before what goes on in the tank stays in the tank. I am well aware of the need to preserve these species and I am strongly apposed to there commercial hybridization. But the primary purpose of my tank is not the frogs, it is the plants. Most captive breeders, yourself included, have frog colonies representing a population bottle neck. You may think that by breeding them in captivity you are doing a service to the species (i.e. preserving it), but with each successive generation your are eroding the pool of genetic variability available to these species. By no means am saying don’t captive breed or do hybridize, I am just throwing this out there as food for thought to those that tote keeping captive frogs as means of preserving them.

While you do have somewhat of a point for many hobbyists (who perhaps breed the children of their original pairs), some try to obtain "different lines", or unrelated pairs.

However, I must say that inbreeding of the same species is a completely different subject matter than crossbreeding species. If all the dart frogs in the wild suddenly decided to group up and interbreed (thus increasing the genetic variability), I don't think the hobbyists would all of a sudden decide that it was good for the hobby for them to do the same.

Just my opinion, but I'm sure others would agree.

Kevin H.

Jay,

I could definitely use some plant recommendations. I have java moss surrounding the land/water divide, but I have not been able to keep any other of the mosses alive. What is the best Viv moss and where is the best place to get it?

My soil mixture is always moist, but never saturated. I have a misting system that is activated for one minute each day.

Thanks,
Tim

I'd say you did a great job on that tank. I wouldnt worry about the toxins in the FBN since the ratio of water to newt is so great. Plus it looks like youve got quite a complex filtration system going on under there which eliminates almost any posibility of toxification. The water depth kind of bothers me (as far as the frogs are concerned) but if what you say is true, and it has been running for over a year with no deaths, they must have a safe way to return to land if they fall in. Not to mention, Im sure they learned their lesson the first time Welcome to the forum, I hope you reply to some of these posts soon (I as well want to know a few more of the specs of this marvelous tank Talk to you later
-David Taylor

>>Hi all,
>>
>>I'm new to the forum here. I wanted to post pics of my 72 gal. Bow Front Paludarium. The tank has been up and running for over a year now.
>>
>>The tank houses:
>>Land:
>>1 - D. Leucomelas (m)
>>1 - D. Azureus (m)
>>1 - D. Tinc (m)
>>3 - Anoles (2f/1m)
>>1 - House Gecko
>>1 - Fire Belly Newt
>>
>>Water:
>>2 - Gourmies
>>1 - Cory Cat
>>2 - Dwarf Water Frogs
>>many Neon Tetras and Long Fin Zebra Danios
>>
>>Let me know what you think.
>>
>>Tim
>>

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"The day we would limit ourselves or adapt to the music scene, would be the day Opeth dies." -Mikael Akerfeldt; lead singer and genious behind the metal band Opeth.

Thanks for all of the nice replies and warm welcome. I've visited the forum often, but just hadn't gotten around to posting.

As for the frogs, yes they are all males. I got them all as sub adults, so I wasn't sure when I got them, but it was always my intention to have just males in the large display tank. If any ended up being female, I would set them up in a separate smaller, less elaborate tank.

As for the anoles, they are the common green anole, not an aggressive anole, like a Bahamas or a brown anole. The anoles and frogs are very compatible size wise and there has never been any type of altercations.

I originally introduced two house geckos, but was able to catch one and remove it. The only reason I want to remove the geckos is because they are never visible (being nocturnal). They just seem to add to the bioload and probably eat the anole hatchlings.

The same thing goes for the Fire Belly Newt. I originally introduced it into the water portion, but it became terrestrial. I probably haven't seen it in a few months and if I do see it again I will probably remove it, but just because it doesn't add to the viewing of the tank.

It's hard to tell in the picture, but there are plenty of easy out areas around the water portion. I made the land/water separation out of plexiglass, but first I found some bog wood in the shape of the shore line that I wanted to create. Then I heated and molded the plexiglass to the shape of the bog wood. After I siliconed the plexiglass into place, I used a dremel tool to router out a slot in the bog wood. The bog wood now sits on the divider and extends into the water.

The picture is from about a year ago, I'll see if I can take and post a more recent one. Also, I'll post more information on my sump and filter systems in another post.

Tim

I agree, excellent set up, it's beautiful and the technical aspects are awesome.
Now, don't take this as flame just my observation and opinion. After all, I'm guilty of mixing myself - I've kept mourning geckos with darts for quite some time now. That said:

In general, I still disagree with species mixing. Worse yet, family/genus/species mixing from different continents/areas/habitats.
The fact that nothing has died does not mean that a mixed viv is a comfortable setup for the animals involved.
The land mass appears to be less than half the volume of the tank - that's three frogs, four lizards and one newt in an area the size of a thirty gallon tank.
Heck, I could probably survive in a box with a three rattlesnakes, four bears and a coyote but would that be happy or healthy envirnment for any of us?

One last observation, and then I'll get off my soapbox. I get the feeling, that if this setup looked liked crap, the anti mixing flames would be scorching away ..... Hmmm

Donn

I dont think it is how the tank looks, it is the size of the tank, and the thought that went in to selecting the animals. Looking at the construction pics of this vivarium in the photo gallery it looks to me like the land area continues along the back wall of the tank in a "peninsula", so there is actually quite a bit of land. I also would guess that the anoles dont spend much time on the ground, but rather climbing around the back wall.
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0.0.5 Blue Dendrobates Auratus
3.2.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Hymenochirus boettgeri)
2.2.0 Asian Floating Frogs (Occidozyga Lima)
1.1.0 White's Tree Frog (Litoria caerulea)