Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a strong opinion on this and here goes.
royal pythons are solitary animals. they only come together in the wild to breed. they are not sociable. they do not enjoy eachothers company. they really don't even enjoy their keepers company. they do tolerate us however. but left to their own devices, they would prefer to stay hidden in their hide box and come out in the evening to hunt.
i think that we as keepers of these animals should make every effort to mimic their natural way of existence. this includes temps, humidity, available hides and NOT KEEPING MULTIPLE SNAKES IN THE SAME ENCLOSURE.
thanks

(WARNING: LONG)

I know that have already gone out of your way to assist me once, and that you're quite active in replying to others. I thank you for that. It's also important to have opinions. It is equally important to explain both sides of the argument.

Why do you have such a problem with more than one snake being kept together? Bad experience maybe?

I have talked with succesful breeders who have kept balls together and one in particular said that if from the moment of the ball's birth, it has been kept with others, then it's stress levels won't be affected much.

I believe him and here's why...

If you never ever handled a ball python, infact, if it knew nothing of humans, then upon contact with us it should be jittery and defensive. Natural instincts of course. On the otherhand, upon constant daily interaction, a ball python warms up to people and almost becomes quite receptive.

First of all humans have already exploited the snake to detrimental levels in their environment. Secondly, we breed them like scientific concoctions to see what will turn out next, some claim out curiosity... but then what in curiosity warrants a $75,000 price? Not always at the harm or expense of a snake, but regardless of the outcome, a wrong intention will always be a wrong intention.

Another thing to remember is that many, many ball pythons suffer at the hands of those trying to procure a living from them, and others trying to have a 'unique' pet. There are many more serious issues concerning these awesome creatures.

It is my opinion that if an owner of ball pythons owns them for the respect and admiration of the magnificent animals they are, and does the best of their ability to keep them in very satisfactory conditions and continues to learn and obtain extensive knowledge about their wonderful pets, it doesn't matter if multiple balls are kept together, so long as the animals show no signs of incompatibility. They really could be much, much worse off.

Incompatible snakes can be detected. I don't remember all of the signs off-hand, but I do remember reading a good article on the subject. Mine show quite the opposite attributes.

On my balls:

Though I am a first time ball owner, I read every care guide I could find on the internet. I visited all of the sites I could find regarding cages and vivariums. I also checked out the fancy breeders and learned about the different morphs and the fascinating combinations. I even consulted breeders and pet store owners before making my decision.

My semi-knowledgeable conclusion was to purchase two 'normal' balls to gain the hands-on experience before I went for a more 'exclusive' morph (i really really like the reduced/banded ones). I provided them the most realistic habitat I could afford: A 30gl long tank with aspen chips, a ceramic heat emitter, a lighted heat source, a 1 gl ceramic water bowl, a large climbing branch, lots of greenery, and a hide.

(I would have purchased a nice professional looking plastic eclosure like neodesha(sp?), but know that a large cage could add to stress, so a large permanent one will be purchased in about a year)

If you don't believe my research was satisfactory, I was able to visibly sex my balls pythons upon purchase... results which were confirmed by the breeder.

Both of my balls show unique character traits and rather than fear me, they explore me. They are very active animals. My pair are inseperable. They explore the same places together, drink at the same time, and always sleep in the same three places of their cage together. When being handled, one loves to curl around my wrist while the other enjoys resting on my shoulder and placing his head on the back of my ear. During the eve of the day I could sit for hours and marvel at their inate ability to explore and find the most inaccessable and remote hiding spots.

I know one of them is injured and one is sick, both as a result of my inexperience. I purchased them out of love for animals. With success in keeping dogs, cats, parrots, fish, caimans, iguanas, and turtles, I feel that my experience with animals will lead me to give my snakes the best care that I can offer. I never intend for any sort of monetary gain with these, or any other creatures.

I would love to hear a more in-depth opinion from you on this. How many ignorant first-timers do you know who are willing to type mini-discourse in a forum? If this does not persuade a reply, I don't know what will... you still may persuade me to seperate my snakes yet.

In case this is someone else unaware of the conditions of my balls:

One has a small head scab and the other has an R.I. The head wound comes from rubbing against a screen and the R.I. is as a result of low temps and humidity. The causes have been remidied and the snakes are undergoing recovery.

you obviously care for your animals. for that you have my respect. that said i feel it is important to mimic an animals natural habitat. if you are going to take an animal out of its natural environment, then you owe it to that creature to make its new environment as closely as possible. this includes their penchant for being loners in the wild. as for bad experiences with keeping multiple snakes in the same enclosure, i have had none. because i have never kept snakes in the same enclosure. before i got into snakes i (like yourself) researched them extensively. i came to the conclusion that they are solitary in the wild. and like i said before, i think we owe it to them to mimic their natural surroundings as much as possible.

"If you never ever handled a ball python, infact, if it knew nothing of humans, then upon contact with us it should be jittery and defensive. Natural instincts of course. On the otherhand, upon constant daily interaction, a ball python warms up to people and almost becomes quite receptive."

as far as this goes, my research on snakes and personal experience lead me to a far different conclusion. snakes are not smart animals. when a snake comes into contact with a human, or anything else for that matter, it places you into one of 4 categories. you are either 1, something to eat, 2 something to climb on, 3 a predator or 4 something to mate with. snakes just view us as something to climb on. thats it. a snake is nothing but pure instinct. don't make the mistake of giving it human traits.

"There are many more serious issues concerning these awesome creatures. "

agreed. but that doesn't make this one any less important.

"It is my opinion that if an owner of ball pythons owns them for the respect and admiration of the magnificent animals they are, and does the best of their ability to keep them in very satisfactory conditions and continues to learn and obtain extensive knowledge about their wonderful pets, it doesn't matter if multiple balls are kept together, so long as the animals show no signs of incompatibility."

if you aren't duplicating their natural surroundings, you aren't providing the best habitat for them. i am assuming here that you are not disputing the fact that they are indeed solitary animals.

"Both of my balls show unique character traits and rather than fear me, they explore me."

again, these animals are not human. impressive and beautiful as they are, they are snakes. with a brain about the size of a pea. lets not forget that.

sincerely, larrymc (i look forward to your reply)

May I begin by adding that I enjoyed your reply, mostly the knowledgable criticisms to what I had to say. I have never thought of a snake as seeing a human with only 4 options.

"you are either 1, something to eat, 2 something to climb on, 3 a predator or 4 something to mate with. snakes just view us as something to climb on. thats it. a snake is nothing but pure instinct"

I do not consider a snake as having human traits, but I do feel that there are more factors. I know that continual human maltreatment of a snake eventually leads to a pavlovian response that makes the snake more fearful of us, inturn increasing the chances of biting, etc. Positive interaction at the same time leads to quite a different result, one where the snake relates people to providing warmth and safety as opposed to just a climbing tool.

"if you aren't duplicating their natural surroundings, you aren't providing the best habitat for them. i am assuming here that you are not disputing the fact that they are indeed solitary animals. "

I do not dispute that they are solitary. I do not apply my theories to one of us taking a snake out of the wild. I apply them to the thousands upon thousands of snakes already taken from the wild or that are currently in pet stores... the ones that die from mistreatment or find homes with people who simply aren't prepared or aren't providing at least an average enclosure for their animal. I believe that money is not the greater issue and that simply even some can't afford a seperate housing for each snake, they still can provide a better home than the likely alternative.

Not everyone in this world exists with sound financial security. Everyone does have a right to own animals. If an animal's enclosure is as close to natural as possible with the exception being more than one snake, then I believe it is ok. In the wild, snakes have to hunt, avoid pretators, find mates, and they come incontact with many stressful situations for them naturally.

Though the concept is not fundamentally sound, it is my opinion that two (and maybe even 3 or 4) snakes kept together under proper conditions can lead out a life that is no more stressful than that of the wild. It will be a safer life. It will be a better fed life. It will be a longer life.

I do appreciate your view, and that is something of the such that: "Bottom line, a snake in capitivity deserves a life most resemblant to that in the wild". It is a good point, I know that you mean to only include the positive aspects of their life in the wild...but bear with me

"i think that we as keepers of these animals should make every effort to mimic their natural way of existence"

Do you imply that I give animals contact with their pedators? Let them explore the jungle of my backyard and hunt for food? Allow them to experience the natural dangers of fire, flood, drought, extereme temps above 100 and below 70?

The point I am getting at, is with the right intentions, adopting multiple snakes to live in the same inclosure (be reasonable... no more than 4 of the same kind in an enclosure scientifically proven to be of proper size for all of the individuals involved) already affords them a longer, easier, and more full-filling life than they are likely to receive in the wild. Yes you bring a valid point that they are 'solitary', but considering that not all of us are as fortunate to be able to provide such wonderful homes for many snakes, I feel that I am able to do the next best thing, that is, remove the one factor in their life that I believe is the least important... solitude.

I do know that my actions are somewhat ironic that buy purchasing snakes I increase the demand which ultimately increase the amount taken from the wild... but I did buy more than one animal because I felt that I could a better existence that it would statistically be likely to have otherwise.

Again, I await your response! Hopefully I have cleared up my point somewhat.

you make some valid points. however, there are a few things i would like to take issue with. not the least of which is your statement that snakes can come to relate people with warmth and safety. like i mentioned in my previous post, snakes place things into 4 categories. you as a person either fit into those categories or you don't. if you were to approach a snake quickly from above, you are likely to promote a defensive response. even though you are a person, your actions placed you into the catgory of a predator. simple as that. if you were to approach a snake with the smell of prey on your hands, you are likely to promote a predatory response. as much as i love these beautiful, exotic animals, my experience tells me that they are stupid. they have absolutley no mental capacity for anything other than survival. i don't beleive that they ever come to a point of trusting people. as you implied. i think that if they are being mistreated, then their husbandry requirements are being met either. if that is the case, then they snake will likely suffer illness. an ill snake is going to be defensive because it knows it is weak. and a weak snake will lash out.

as for you keeping your snakes in the same enclosure, well obviously that is your decision. judging by your thoughful replies to the little debate we have going here, i have no doubt that your snakes are kept in a warm, safe place. it is just my personal belief that these animals shouldn't be kept together as they are solitary animals in the wild. no matter how elaborate the enclosure, there is still going to be competition over the "primo" basking spot, or the most comfortable hide.

as for :
Do you imply that I give animals contact with their pedators? Let them explore the jungle of my backyard and hunt for food? Allow them to experience the natural dangers of fire, flood, drought, extereme temps above 100 and below 70?

no, this is not what i am implying. i think that these are the only benefits that an animal does enjoy if it is taken out of its natural home and placed in a cage in someone's living room. and for these benefits the snake pays a high price. they are taken from their natural habitat, stuffed in a crate and shipped to some pet store on the other side of the world. now, i understand that i am being hypocritical here, being the keeper of 2 snakes myself. i only say this to make my point.

as for "a longer, easier, and more full-filling life than they are likely to receive in the wild." now the thing about a longer life, i am not disputing at all. however, i think i will respectfully disagree on the latter 2 points. these animals have made it thousands of years in the wild with no help from humans. who are we to say which life is easier or more fulfilling?

i think at this point we might just have to agree to disagree. i have enjoyed our little debate though. it is always a pleasure to speak with a fellow snake lover. especially one as thoughtful and concise as yourself.
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0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Boa (BCI)
0.1 Wife
1.0 Son
0.2 Daughters

Great points and a quick response! This is turning into a serios debate! I like...

However, I think it is clear to the extent that neither of us will back down from our arguments and both hold signifanct points. I would conclude by saying:

The world we exist in has deemed the removal of snakes from the wild into the household an acceptable practice. Whilest we all wish that every snake could fulfill its life in the wild, this is not the case. However, we can still provide a satisfactory home for these animals which can even prove more beneficial than the wild. As best as can be provided, the snake's artificial environment should resemble that of it's natural habitat. Snakes are solitary animals and solitude is advised. However, when the situation arises to provide multiple snakes a home in one enclosure, extra care should be taken to prepare the enclosure properly to fully represent a natural habitat. Multiple snakes should only be housed together if the only other options for the snake will lead it to becoming worse off.

Agreeable?

i think your right. we should just agree to disagree. nice debating with you though.
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0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Boa (BCI)
0.1 Wife
1.0 Son
0.2 Daughters

Anytime! It was fun...

Are there any other topics that are heated for you?
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-Iman

1.1 Balls
0.1 Boa (BCI)
0.0 Experience
100.0 % LOVE

Hope it helps...

as a matter of fact there is. people who drive slow in the fast lane really get on my nerves. but i guess thats a topic for another forum
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0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Boa (BCI)
0.1 Wife
1.0 Son
0.2 Daughters

I DO NOT keep my pythons OR any other of my herps in the same enclosure.

Sorry i didnt speicfy that in that shed post .......

i met they were each in a DIFFERENT 10 gal!!!

I have a question. I've been wondering about it for quite some time and this seems like an appropriate place to ask even though I imagine I'll get lambasted, trod upon, and generally denigrated. Here goes: why is it that whenever I see two snakes, usually P. regius, in one enclosure weather it be at a show or in thier normal day-to-day home that even if there are two identicle hiding places at identicle temps and humidities, both snakes are usually in the same box all entwined? Are they neurotic or at least behaving abberantly? Perhaps what we think is an identicle hide is not in thier perspective so they both stuff themselves into the best one? I'm not challenging anybody's opinion or experience here and I am by no means treading onto emotions in animals. Being in the sciences I would only like this discussion to encompass that which is able to quantified and emotions and companionship with other members of the species or humans do not fall into that category. I would really like a straight answer to my questions and an "I don't know" or "there is no research on the subject" are both perfectly fine answers. Thanks for reading and replying with minimal lambasting, trodding, and denigration.
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2 P. regius, 1 male 1 female, both normal, both CB, both '03, both approximately 22", both approximately 170g, both eat 1 FT rat pup every 5-7 days consistently.
Housed in 40 breeder and 10 regular all glass aquaria.
Humidity and temp measured with 3 digital hygrometers/ thermometers.
Heat provided by lamps with 60W bulbs ( on timers and rheostats) and ZooMed UTH.
Humidity 50-70%
Temps mid 90's-high 70's F depending upon time of day and end of tank.
5-7 hides in each tank
2 or more water dishes in each tank.
Feeding occurs in individual 5gallon plastic pails with lids.
No handling 24-48 hours after feeding.
Thank you for reading first THEN criticizing.

I have heard they often are together because of reasons other than the obvious ones such as temp or humidity. One spot may be more comfortable to the snake because of reasons we cannot see. Also, they will lay near each other for the added warmth.

Rob Woods

How do pokeilothermic(sp?) animals get added warmth from laying next to eachother or do you mean after one has been basking the other will go sit by it?

I think your interpretation of the event is incorrect. When snakes curl up together, it is not to increase warmth, but rather to decrease the loss of warmth... they in effect blanket each other. This is also a common snake behavior repeatedly seen in the wild.

Hope that helps...