Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Many may disagree, but I think letting reptiles cool down at night and also during winter is very important for their health. A few years ago, it was recommended to anyone getting a chameleon to keep it at 90 or 100 degrees at all times because "they will die unless you keep them really hot." This was standard advice in books, and invariably recommended by pet stores and even reputable reptile stores. It was given as gospel. Then, people began to realize that their chameleons weren't living very long, so they got the reputation of being very delicate animals to keep and were said to have short lifespans.

It turned out to simply be the temperature, as it was slowly discovered years later. Chameleons must have cooler nights to really thrive. I believe the same is true of all reptiles, it's just that some may be more slow to show problems than others. There isn't a place on earth that stays the exact same temperature 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. ALL continents have a winter, even if it isn't as pronounced as it is here. Africa, Australia, all of them. One thing many people do not consider because they are thinking only of temperature, is length of daylight. All animals are programmed to have a long photoperiod for part of the year and a short one for part. This is one of the major things that tells hibernating animals when to hibernate in addition to temp. This is why some captive animals insist on hibernating even when you try to keep them warm. They sense the shortening days.

Of course, with tropical animals, you don't want to get too crazy with the cooldown, but 8 or 10 degrees during the day and room temp at night will do them good for a couple of months.

It would be interesting to do a long-term study on the effects of hibernation/brumation in reptiles. I know there is an ongoing debate on the subject in regards to snakes. Most people on the forums seem to feel that you don't need to bother with cooling unless you plan to breed--although there's always a lot of posts in the fall along the lines of "My snake won't eat!". My personal experience is that many snakes will put themselves in brumation anyway, by not eating, staying on the cool side, etc. I have one rosy boa that will eat from March to July, and will not eat in fall or winter, no matter how high the temps are. Most of my snakes automatically stop eating in late summer, and are ravenous when they warm up again in the spring. As of this weekend, all of them will be down for winter--the plus is that I save a little on the PG&E bill for a few months, lol.

I think the fact that most reptiles will not breed without some kind of cooling period is telling. The problem is that brumation/hibernation can be a complicated thing (more so for tortoises). It's entirely possible that they may live longer if they experience periods of winter cooling, but not if they have some mishap due to husbandry issues (full gut, fluctuating temps, etc.). Snakes are more forgiving of some errors, but tortoises seem to need more rigidity in hibernation. So there's a little give and take there.

Hope this makes sense. My brain is fried tonight.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

How'd the brain get fried, Sohni? Did you fall asleep by your tortoises's heat lamp? Don't worry, you made perfect sense in your post.

I agree that it would be very interesting to see the results of long-term studies of hibernation depravation in reptiles. I've already given my opinion about what the outcome would be. I believe that animals will have a degradation in their health after a few years, if not sooner, if they are not allowed to hibernate. I think of it this way; reptiles are not made the same way as mammals, and most of them do not have the stamina that mammals have. Nor do they have the stamina birds or insects or fish have, for that matter. Most of them tire after prolonged exertion, and spend a lot of time sleeping or just resting. Who is to say that making them stay awake and active 365 days a year when they were meant to be sleeping a third or even half of that time does not affect them? Add to that the fact that most people keep them under lights and heat for 12, 14 hours or even more, when in the wild the days would be far shorter than that for much of the year. As I said before, even though tropical areas may stay relatively warm year round, they have very short days in the wintertime. A sulcata in Africa would be active a very short amount of time in mid winter. The rest would be spent sleeping and resting. Perhaps a southern hemishpere's version of hibernation? I think if they are made to be in high gear 24/7, 365 days, it quite literally burns them out. They are like a small engine being made to continually run at full throttle in hot weather. Sproing!! Pyramiding, parasite infestation, dehydration, respiratory problems, etc etc etc is the result.

How many people know that many parasites die inside the animal when it hibernates? Many "bugs" cannot stand the cold like their hosts can. No down time for the tortoise....no down time for the worms and viruses and so forth. Certain bacteria can withstand cold temperatures, but most intestinal parasites and even some viruses are vulnerable to the cold. Nature's parasite control that is erased by man-made conditions?

Like you said, the fact that the reptiles will often try to hibernate no matter how warm you keep them and also sometimes won't breed if they haven't hibernated is very significant and telling. It means they are expressing a need more powerful than us humans can understand.

When you say your reptiles will be "down for the winter" this weekend what do mean, exactly? I was just curious as to what procedure you follow.

I better correct a misspelled word in the last post before Sohni sees it and smacks me again.

That should "deprIvation, not deprAvation. Big difference!!

Boy, if I ever misspell a word, I'll never hear the end of it.

Snakes brumate rather than hibernate, which means that they are awake, but in a state of reduced activity and metabolism. I don't know if you knew that. Snakes in very cold winter areas (like Minnesota) might actually hibernate, but I'm not sure about that. The procedure for cooling them down is basically just making sure their gut is empty, and then lowering the temps over several days. I keep most of my snakes in the house, because we keep it under 68 (usually cooler) and that's fine for most of them. The rubber boas will have to go in the garage, because they're active at cooler temps and the house is not cold enough. I'll warm them all up in mid-February and start feeding them again around March 1.

Since they're not actually asleep, you can have considerable temperature fluctuations and not have to worry so much as long as it's not too cold.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

do a word search of Brumate. It is a term created by herpers. That's gotta make you wonder.
Ed

Is it really? I didn't know that. I guess another term for it could be "torpor," although I don't know if that's an equivalent state.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Yeah, if you ever do misspell a word, I'll be on you like hair on Robin Williams.

I always thought that snakes do actually hibernate if they are from areas that get cold. I know king snakes around here that are from the higher elevations sure seem to be hibernating when I have lifted a rock or piece of wood and seen them.

I am kind of confused about the hibernation/brumation thing anyway. I have seen brumation used as interchangable with hibernation, and I have seen it used to describe a state that is somewhat less deep of a sleep than hibernation. Like a semi-hibernation.

Mammals hibernate. Brumate was another term coined by herpetoculturists to decribe what most reptiles truely do.
Ed

Everbody wants to have their own phrase that only they can use for their owm little world.

I say hibernation is hibernation and mammals as well as reptiles can be described as hiberanting when they enter the appropriate metabolic state of slow heartbeat and breathing, etc.

What's next, a special term for reptiles eating? "Their not eating, their blasticating!"

I don't know about everybody else but those are the terms generally used among herpetologists.
Hibernation pertains to mammals where there is an actual chemical and physiological change that takes place. Once a mammal is in a full hibernating state there is pretty much nothing you can do to get it out of that state.
In the case of reptiles there is no physiological change as such. If you raise the temperature on a brumating reptile it will usually resume normal behavior.
(ref. Turtles Perspective and Research, Harless/Morlock)

My understanding is that the major difference is that brumating animals are capable of moving around, drinking, etc., whereas in hibernation, the animal is more or less in a state of suspended animation. I suppose that in milder climates tortoises might actually brumate rather than hibernate. It's really a question of degrees, I guess (pardon the pun). The colder it is, the more likely the animal is to actually enter into hibernation.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Another thing to be aware of is that an amimal that is hibernating deeply is not using much energy (fat) so it can stay that way for months, and one that is only semi-hibernating is probably not eating but is still burning fat and getting thinner all the time.

That's why the fridge is the way to go.

Healthy snakes generally do not lose a significant amount of weight during brumation. It would be difficult for them to launch almost immediately into breeding activity after a lengthy period of brumation (4 months or more) if they lost a large percentage of their body weight. What I've read indicates that weight loss during brumation is no greater than that during hibernation.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I'm not sure what you mean by a "physiological change" in mammals that doesn't occur in reptiles. Specifically, what changes are those? I would tend to disagree because I know there definitely are pronounced changes in the blood chemistry of hibernating reptiles as well as greatly reduced heartbeat and respiration. The digestive system shuts down as well. Don't those qualify as physiological changes? Explain exactly how the two differ, please.

As far as reptiles not hibernating as as deeply as mammals, I find that highly debatable as well. In fact, it's bunk. I have seen enough hibernation reptiles awaken to know that they don't just suddenly spring to life after they are put in a warmer area. It can take sometimes more than an hour for them to start moving if they have been hibernated at cold temperatures, like in the mid-30s. And your statement that nothing can wake up a hibernating mammal is just silly. What do they do when spring comes? Do they keep sleeping forever? No. They wake up when they get warm enough, just exactly like reptiles. You want more proof? I studied bats extensively, and one of the reasons they are becoming endangered is because people were going into the caves with flashlights to see them hibernating and it woke them up. This caused them to burn precious body fat and some of them were dying of starvation during hibernation because of it. Scientists have since educated people and also have put iron bars on the entrances of some caves that people can't fit through. Now, if bats can be awakened from hibernation by just a flashlight, that sure doesn't sound like the near-death deep sleep you describe for mammals. Bears also will wake up very easily because they do not truly hibernate no matter how cold it is.

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