Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I seem to remember reading not too long ago that some people aren't using UVB any more, and just using calcium supliment that has D3 in it. I'm sure there has been some research done on this, does anybody have links to some good articles I could read on this? Or just have something to say about it? I don't have UV bulbs set up for my babies yet (they've only been out for a day or 2), but I was thinking if I don't need to I'd rather not, as their tank is bright as it is now.

Ody,
If your tank is brightly lit, your temps, right, you do not need uvb lighting. Your dragon will use the dietary d3 it receives for calcium assimilation. Make sure you are lightly dusting at least one food item(live or veggies) a day with the supplement. I like rep-cal, minera-all I , and the t-rex BD ICB and VGF.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Yep, tank is bright, temps are all good. I'm using rep-cal w/d3 and finishing up a tub of flukers reptavitamin, then I'm planning on switching to a new kind (any suggestions?).

I like the new t-rex bearded dragon supps. There are 3 of them. An insect dust, a veggie growth dust and a veggie maintenance dust.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Does T-Rex endorse these as a replacement for a UVB light?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

"If your tank is brightly lit, your temps, right, you do not need uvb lighting. Your dragon will use the dietary d3 it receives for calcium assimilation. Make sure you are lightly dusting at least one food item(live or veggies) a day with the supplement. I like rep-cal, minera-all I , and the t-rex BD ICB and VGF."

> I thought Dragons needed Uvb lighting in addition to calcium/vitemin/d3 supplements?
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-Lauren

~ Lauren's Lizards ~

groups.yahoo.com/group/LaurensLizards

In my opinion, YES UVB is REQUIRED. NOT optional.

www.reptilerooms.com/Sections index-req-viewarticle-artid-55-page-1.html

See for yourself.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Does anybody have links to more studies, both ways? I can certainly pick up some MV bulbs if need be, but I've spoken with several breeders who don't use UV bulbs and raise perfectly healthy dragons.

By the way, right now I'm using 100w GE Reveal bulbs and getting the temps in their tank perfect. Is there a MV bulb I'd be able to use that could put out about the same amount of heat??

"looking pretty" and being healthy are two different things...

Because somebody has a 15" adult with a gorgeous pattern & colour that has never been exposed to UVB does not mean that it is necessarily healthy.

NOBODY has provided ANY proof that dragons are "healthy" without UVB. NOBODY has provided any blood panel results, or ANY proof.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Do you have any more proof from others that shows that they need the UV? In your article you said the only thing that changed was giving them UV. But they obviously moved tanks, the heat could have been different, hours the lights were on, more/less cage mates, different types of food, different amounts of food, different feeding times. I find it hard to believe that you could leave everything exactly the same except for adding the MVB's. Maybe if they had stayed in the same care and just added the MVB's, but they moved, so stuff changes.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but for me to believe something I need more then one person telling me it's true, and more then one study to go by.

have you got any proof they don't?

NOBODY has ever shown any proof they don't when making such statements.

I know you're not trying to be an ass, and I'm not seeing it as that. But we've seen thousands of dragons over the last few years, some raised with plenty of UVB, some raised with a little, and some raised with none.

The ones raised under UVB are generally much bigger, much hardier, and can fight off parasites & other problems easier, often without medication, have a higher activity level, and are great eaters.

When the dragons came to us, they were housed exactly as they previously had been, except for the two 2-year-olds, as they were different sexes. They were previously housed together, and we separated them because neither was in a condition to breed.

We gave them the same time periods they were receiving before, we kept the heat as close as possible, as with the diet.. But, even in general day to day care with the same animal in the same enclosure, in the same location, there's going to be fluctuations to some degree.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Ody,
That's exactly what I've been avoiding saying. I agree with you completely that there are many variables other than the addition of the MVB that cuased these dragons to turn around. In fact, it is very unlikely it is the addition of the bulbs only. UVB producing bulbs do nothing more than allow a lizrd to produce d3 through the light. If they are getting dietary d3 you will not have a problem. Thae fact is that there are not many published studies realting to this, but you are doing the right thing asking breeders that raise dragons this way.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

breeders that tell others they do not use UVB or used what we considered poor UVB.

As far as other changes, we sent two of them off after a month to another breeder to see if the improvement continued, with the same routines, but UVB added like we were using and strangely enough it did, almost in exact keeping with the ones we kept here.

And Please, GO to those breeders that tell you this and look at their adult dragons that were rasied that way! Then come to our house and see ours, our house is open to any inspection of our dragons and our husbandry

We have, the ones we have seen have problems, growth issues, thinner bone density, coccidia, fungus......they agree, but not publicly as it could harm their future sales, thats their business... we have yet to see one that advocates this that does not have problems..... NOW>> that may not be all that do, I have not been to all breeders homes that state this to know, but I can tell you, two on here that advocated that in the past, know the truth of it now and they regret they listened to others. Several others are changing back over to UVB lights after seeing mouth gaps starting to show in their adults and almost all agree, they 9THRIVE better with it.

IMO, they can live without it and supplements alone, they do NOT thrive as well.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Other people can do as they please, but mine will always have the UVB. I'm a firm believer in these UVB bulbs and wish only the best of luck to those who chose not to provide it. Personally, I refuse to risk the health of my bearded dragons, or any of my other reptiles.
Cricket

new people, many who do not understand the cost to give dragons the best possible options, being told not to use UVB.

We ALWAYS recommend that other use online search engines to check the many reports of UVB, view dragons from both beliefs and make their own decision.

There are many online, this one has many in the information area it is based on iguanas, but shows blood changes when UVB is added.
[url]http://www.myiguana.com/trexacuvsolb.html[url]

There are many others by Phillips, Boston University School of Medicine , Fullspectrumsolutions, use the search engines and you will find them, what you will not find is a scientific documented study that states NOT to expose bearded dragons to UVB
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www.reptilerooms.com

It is to my understanding that the UVB is necessary for your reptile. What gives us humans skin cancer and sun poisoning is the same rays that they HAVE TO HAVE in order for their bodies to properly metabolize the calcium. I'm sure that some will disagree with me, but I've done the research and not providing the UVB light is not worth the risk of jeopardizing the health of my bearded dragons or any other diurnal reptiles I have. The only thing I don't use UVB on is my nocturnal lizards, such as my leopard geckos. Using calcium with D3 is also necessary, but without the UVB, can you say for sure that your reptile is actually getting the calcium required?

Cricket

"Using calcium with D3 is also necessary, but without
the UVB, can you say for sure that your reptile is actually getting the calcium required?"

Yes, you can actually. When the dragons grow to full size without any sign of MBD and reproduce and lay fully calcified eggs. I think that is proof enough that they are getting the calcium they need through dietary d3 supplementation.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Still waiting to hear from the people you have sent or sold dragons too about the great conditions they are in

Still waiting to even SEE pictures of your dragons that were rasied this way

Still just waiting for you to do more than state an opinion that we have seen far too may opposite results to buy
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www.reptilerooms.com

How big is 'adult' size? Are we talking the 15-16" 250g midgets? Or healthy adult sized dragons?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

ive never heard anyone say that using uvb actually HARMS dragons, and its not really that expensive to buy a uvb or mvb bulb, and it certainly doesnt take much effort to provide uvb. ill let the super-knowledgeable breeders do what they think is best in absence of truly scientific studies, but for the rest of us (ie, those that are still figuring things out) it seems safest to me to go ahead and provide the uvb. not doing requires that the keeper supplements with perfect amount of calcium and d3, and possibly gets the beardie out in the sun enough. i dont have the experience to see when my beardies are having problems early before they get out of hand, so it seems to me that myself and other newbies should be better safe than sorry.

personally, ive noticed that my first beardie got a lot bigger and a lot prettier once i got her a mvb. but of course, there could be a million other reasons for that.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)