Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dave,
Could you post pics of the two different locales? One from Sumatra and one from Malay? Or possibly tell us the physical difference?
If they are both Brongersmai, why don't they separate the different locales by subspecies? Or even with the Borneos and the Sarawaks as Breitensteini, why is there no subspecies between the two? I can physically tell the difference in the Borneos and the Sarawaks, but what about the Brongersmai?
Also, I have a friend who has a "Brongersmai" with orange eyes. Is this common? I have never seen it before, I thought orange eyes were a trait of Curtus. Please clear this up as I am confused.

Read this in the VPI mail bag, he awnser one of your question I think.
http://www.vpi.com/VPIMailBag/vsforum.asp?fid=288&ftid=[filtername]&fvt=1&gid=[groupname]&iaction=25

IMO brongersmai from Sumatra and from Malaysia can't be told apart. I've seen hundreds and counted scales on a number of them We even compared mDNA in a small sample, and we did not find sufficient evidence to warrant identifying the separated populations as being significantly different. In part, the species is highly polymorphic with a lot of geographic variation and a lot of interpopulational variation. It's hard to identify what is a "normal" blood. It may be that the populations haven't been separated long enough to have diverged significantly (my guess) or it might be that there is sufficient gene flow between the populations to keep them the same.

Pretty much is the same story with Sarawaks. Yes they are somewhat different from the "normal" ones we see in captivity that are mostly from the area of Pontianak in western Kalimantan. But comparison of mDNA showed only a very minor variation. And morphologically breitensteini is another highly variable species.

Of course, I don't mean to sound like I think that all the work on the group is done. It's very possible that future researchers will identify new taxa within any of the three curtus-complex species. Maybe someday, with better data, someone will be able to better define the variation of Sarawaks and then identify them as a separate taxon. We have a group of red-headed dwarf curtus from central Sumatra that could well be some new species or subspecies, but we just don't have enough data on how they vary from the populations around them.

Orange eyes are typically a character of curtus and breitensteini. Of course, it's possible that this brongersmai has a curtus back in the family tree somewhere, as the two taxa are know to hybridize in nature. In some areas it's possible that there could be some gene flow between the species and you get some mixing like that. But I've seen so much variation in what look like pure brongersmai to me that most minor variations like eye color hardly surprise me any more.

Jezabel, thanks for trying to link to the MailBag. The link didn't work for me, but I appreciate the effort.

Dave, as always, you are very informative. I appreciate you taking the time and answering some menial questions. Much appreciated.