Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Gee it was great seeing Gail and Nigel from Renaissance Reptiles! I saw Trooper Walsh and the charming Kara and Kevin from NERD. Glad Kevin said what he said about certain morphs. I thought maybe I was wrong. Looking for some "new morph pics soon" wink wink.
I bought some Freedom Breeders Racks for my Ball Python collection. Before I forget Brian Sharp was there too with his blonde Pastels.
It was a "fun time" for me and I look forward in seeing some of you folks in Chicago next year.
For all the folks that stopped by our table and said hi to me and John Davenport .....Thanks we appreciate it. Hope you liked the pied I had on display and all those that took pictures of it.....I loved meeting all you who came by and said hi. Hope you liked the plastic lizard for $25,000.00 [thanks JY!] LOL. Can't wait to see all of you next year!!!! Happy Herping and may the breeding season be with you. Take care.
Thanks,
RicK & John!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What are we talking about?

Edited on November 17, 2003 at 21:31:46 by PHGinger.

............funny...........

........Did you say Hi to Ian ?.........

........nice....peaceful show huh......kewl..........

JYReptiles

Yes, Ian was next to me! Real nice person. He had 6-8 tables. He has a lot of great looking ball pythons.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What are we talking about?

I don't get it.
What did Kevin say about certain morphs?

Kevin is working on a project with double hets. I do not know if he wanted the public to know what it was. I agreed with him about the project of working with double hets. I thought it would be better to let him tell what it was. He indicated to me that he did not know what he produced was in fact what he was working on. That is why I said what I did. After all he is the master of new morphs. Just look of what new morphs he produced!
When anyone crosses something that is a double het x double het no one really knows what the morph will look like. I think this statement is true. No one will know what a pied x albino will look like. They have a visual idea but not a factual idea. I think that a stripe with something we will be able to tell cause all will be looking for the obvious. But what about an axanthic x pied? What will that look like? Who knows? We are looking at morphs that sometimes there are no references to see if in fact we created that morph. In ball pythons, as I am sure you know, do not have large clutches so the one in sixteen takes longer to show that trait we all want to see. With other reptiles they can lay or give birth to more offspring. I do hope this helps you understand what I am/was referring too.
And Kevin this was not a post to put pressure for you to display a picture of the morph you were trying or did produce. That is one of the reasons why I respect your professional opinion on the morphs you produce and label. I should have kept my big mouth shut on this one. And I do publicly apologize to you. But I thought maybe you might be posting a picture of the animal like you did with the spider x spider on your site. It is folks like you that inspire folks like me and others! Thanks again for sharing your thoughts of the one in sixteen theory. Sometimes we live in a society of fast foods.."you want fries with that"...A good meal takes a lot longer to prepare. IMHO
RicK of Ball Boutique, Inc.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What are we talking about?

DeMo first writes: "Glad Kevin said what he said about certain morphs. I thought maybe I was wrong. Looking for some "new morph pics soon" wink wink."

Now, are you talking about the Snow Ball? I guess I came to that conclusion due to all your opinions about them being "faded albinos" lately.

One more question.....

With a statement like this "And Kevin this was not a post to put pressure for you to display a picture of the morph you were trying or did produce. That is one of the reasons why I respect your professional opinion on the morphs you produce and label."

What does this post of 2 weeks ago mean?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=232160,232429

Specifically your quote of "Again, I do not think IMHO that no one knows what a "snow" looks like nor IMHO that none have been produced. I look at NERD'S web site and they have "faded" albinos that looks paler than what is called a snow on VPI's web site."

I'm really confused.
Can you help me make sense of all this???

I really can not quote him. But I hope the following will help you understand how I feel about the snows and 1 in 16 odds! BTW we were not talking about the snows per say but a project he was working on with the 1 in 16 odds.
Let me start with this. When the first snow was produced there were skeptics out there saying it was NOT a snow. I was one of them. But now, as well as others, say the same animal IS a snow. The way I see it is this. All named a snow now is a snow until proven different. People can agree with me or disagree with me. I am not trying to get into a dissing match with anyone. I picture the snow as an animal with NO yellow. Why? I saw the VPI picture that they had in their concept of what one should look like. The axanthic should wash out the yellow.
I would love to know how all the snow came about. How many eggs were produced to create the animal. I know one in sixteen is a long shot. Was it from albino het axanthic X albino het axanthic? Odds get better. I have seen a hard eight [one die a four and the other die a four] appear on a dice table. 1 in 36. Yet I also saw that same hard eight come up FIVE TIME IN A ROW without a soft eight or seven come up!
This is why I accept all snows as of today as snows. I would also say that PERHAPS there maybe one produced that has NO YELLOW with the double het x double het. What would you call one that looks like the VPI concept? Perhaps there would be none produced.
With the double het [stripe x albino] it would be less of a debate because we would be looking for a stripe. Am I wrong in this statement?
I know some folks who are reading this may or may not agree with me. That is up to you. We all can just wait as the different morph are produced since we do not have an animal that we are trying to create.The concept was in my head. This is how I feel about the VPI, Southerland, Jolliff snows. I may be wrong and so be it I am accepting them all as snows. Sorry if offends any one! It is my feelings on this double het breeding. I am probably wrong but time will tell if one gets produced like the VPI concept. I am sure there are several people into this project now and the more animals are produced the more data we will have and gathered.
I hope now everyone will understand me now. Till now all the snows produced are snows until proven contrary. I think this is fair and sensible way to approach this project at this time.
Have a great day!
RicK
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What are we talking about?

Genetics are VERY specific about the outcome of Heterozygous breedings. Punnett Squares give you EXACTLY what should come out in a perfect situation. However... these predictions' accuracy is NOT based on entire clutches. The predictions are based on EACH EGG and it's probability of being a certain homozygous form.

You may get one DBl Homozygous out of a 16 egg project... you may not. Remember statistics are ALWAYS accurate when you count massive numbers. For instance... from 160 eggs you hatched around 10 Dbl Homos... that is more like it. Even MORE accurate if you hatch 1600 eggs and you get around 100 Dbl Homos!

Just because you hatch 16 eggs doesn't mean that ONE of them HAS to be a Dbl Homo.

Here is a bit of controversy for you... I may get reamed over this one... This illustrates my explanation of genetics based on each egg (embryo)...

Possible Hets... some say (no offense meant to you) that it is more advantageous to hold back siblings because it nearly guarantees you to have Hets by probability. This is false! For this to be true then Punnett Squares have to be accurate to clutches.

For example... you breed a Het male to a Normal female to make 50% Possible Hets. She lays 4 eggs and they are all female! (perfect world huh?) You think by holding back all 4 that your chances are better of having 2 100%ers than if you saved 1 50%er from each of 4 different clutches. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. For there to be a difference, our punnett square has to control the entire clutch, which it doesn't. We are NOT guaranteed to have 2 Hets and 2 Normals in that 4 egg clutch. We are however guaranteed that each of those 4 eggs has a 1 in 2 or 50/50 chance of being a Het.

Think this is BS... call your local Geneticist!

This works the same way... Ralph got a clutch of 4 eggs from Dbl Het x Dbl Het (Jolliff Line) in which the results were ONE OF EACH... 1 Axanthic, 1 Albino, 1 Normal, 1 Snow! This just shows how everything in genetics is just chance. He was NOT guaranteed to get 1 Snow out of 16 eggs but he WAS guaranteed that EVERY SINGLE EGG had a 1 in 16 shot of being a Snow!

On a side note... when did ANYONE EVER say a SNOW was going to be WHITE?!? I have only seen maybe 2 Axanthics that were actually that silver/gray color as adults!! Most all Axanthics are some form of Brownish/Gray... remember... they still have Erythrophores... gotta get that red out too!

Snow Boas, Snow Corns, Snow Honduran Milksnakes... etc... NONE are WHITE!! And unless you actually go in an kill all of those little Chromatophores... it will NEVER be as white as the white on a PIEBALD or a LEUCISTIC. They just don't have the skin cells to make the pigment show up PERIOD! Albinos and Axanthics do..........

And that's all I have to say about that...

Thanks for reading...
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Great post.
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- Joel Smith

"If you're not part of the solution, you're still part of the problem"

I agree with you. I know a person who bred het to het axanthics and got all 66% hets. No axanthics. I bred my het to het pieds and received 3 pieds out of 4 eggs.
The thing should be noted that the normal you mentioned could be het for albino or het for axanthic and dh snow or just like you said normal. But I know you knew that. It was "normal looking".
I believe that there are two types of white. Pied and albino are not the same "type" of white. Like I say to this point I have to agree with the breeders that what they produced are snows. The one in sixteen can be in your favor or not in your favor. And yes we are not guaranteed to have hets with the 50%. The odds get better with each 50% you have. Randy can do the odds thing. And the odds thing could have produce all normal looking animals instead of the snow/axanthic/albino/normal looking. I am working with 4 possible dh snows. That means at least one of them should be het for something .... Yes/no? Or otherwise I worked years for nothing! Great post.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What are we talking about?

What were their parents? I'm guessing that the 4 PDH Snows you have came from a PDH Snow bred to a Normal. This means that your PDHs are actually 25% PDH Snow... this is a combination of them being 50% PH Albino and 50% PH Axanthic.

By my previous explanation... you could definitely have nothing there... just about as much as you could have SOMETHING! Upon conception... each of those PDH Snows had a 50/50 shot at being Het Albino... a 50/50 shot at being Het Axanthic... therefore a 25% shot at being Het for Both and a 25% shot at being Het for nothing! But it is based on EACH embryo NOT on the number of animals you aquired. I guess if you get enough... you're bound to hit it one day.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I have bred a PDH Snow male to 3 PDH Snow females all produced from Ralph Davis breeding a PDH Snow male to Normal females. They are not siblings but as I'm sure you have followed from my other post... it makes NO difference!

Thanks... and good luck to everyone with Possible Hets or Definites... in the end... its all some degree of chance anyway...

LATER
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Sean,

You hit the nail on the head with the "per embryo" comment. I have tried to convince people of that fact for years. Some are even very experienced Corn snake breeders. Every possible is a roll of the dice per egg. Congratulations on keeping the genetic diversity in your animals! Breeding of unrelated animals should be the rule rather than the exception!

I'm going waaaay out and telling you that you will hatch an albino in 1 clutch and an axanthic in another for your 1.3 PDH snow project. Thus, proving your male DH and 1 female at least het. albino and another at least het. axanthic. Then the real fun begins.

The great and powerful OZ has spoken. Seriously, good luck with the Snow project!

P.S. 10-24 for life!

Chad S.

I agree wholeheartedly. I know NOTHING about genetics other than what I read. To me the Difference is with the Axanthics. I have a PDH for snow-Jolliff line. I have seen A big difference in the Jolliff and VPI axanthics. The Jolliff Axanthics I have seen (pics)have more brown than the VPI's which, in my opinion, are more just silver and black (think of Oakland Raiders colors) . When they are young, the difference really stands out. Just compare pics of a Jolliff and a VPI Axanthic. Now I HAVEN'T seen alot of pics of the other "strains" of axanthics so I cant do a complete comparison. In my opinion, again, I would feel that if you wanted a "cleaner" snow the VPI's may be the ones. I am basing that on the whole "wash out"
thing!

n/p.
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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

I do not have the time to read through all of these post since I need to unpack from the show and play with my critters.
The double het project was the hi contrast albinos with the orange ghsot. I bred the double hets back to each other and hatched out 4 albinos, a ghost and two poss double hets. Did I produce an albino ghost?/

I DON"T KNOW...they have shed once, they are feeding....there are three VERY SHARP hi contrast orangish(but hi contrast ARE ORANGE) albinos and one BLAH albino. They need to shed again for me tow rule out the notion that I did or did not. I may have whiffed or this project may only offer a slight difference if any from a sharp hi contrast albino. Not all project yield the eye bulging results we hope for.

For the record. I don't think it is an easy thing to breed two double hets together and get the one in sixteen double mutation. I in fact think it is an accomplishment in the world of 4-6 egg clutches to get it.

Regardless of Ralph and myself having internal issues that other people seems to enjoy it does not take away from the guys results and collection. I am more than green with envy with his collection! He has great success and great animals. He has hatched out the real deal snow ball, no question, the VPI axanthic is as nice as it will get! I have strong doubts about some of the other snows out there, I don't think there are quite as many hatched as people think. I think we may be seeing some blah albinos and we only think they are the snow. I have been hatching out blah albinos for several years now by mistake...... the one in sixteen is not such an easy thing to hit unless you fell on a lucky horse shoe like Ralph!
I don not suddenly become best buddies with a person because we may have a particular "enemy" in common.

Demo, you spent many long moments ripping on me when you were in the Ralph boot camp...... now that you are on the outside why am I worth a dime? Is it the fact that Ralph and I are not best buddies?
I am not trying to be a jerk but I REMEMBER things and I do not like it when I get ripped on for no reason and then things change.

The school yard has long shut down.....

Remember one thing kiddies, what you think and what you know are not always the same thing.

I still think RALPH SUCKS!!!!! Kev NERD
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity

Just wanted to say thanks!!!!!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

This discussion has been moved from the ball python forum.
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PHWyvern