Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There's an article in the latest reptiles magazine written by the president of ZooMed (which credits him as "keeping and breeding reptiles for 36 years and the co-owner of California Zoological Supply) which explains all the different lighting...

One part in particular was very interesting..

(Quoted from Reptiles Magazine, January 2004, Page 29)

"Why can't we just give our reptiles the vitamin D3 that they need and skip the whole UVB thing? Well, unfortunately, activeD3, is quite dangerous (it is the main ingredient in several rat poisons) and shouldn't be administered by the average reptile keeper. Veterinarians need to take several measurements and calcuate a dosage for a specific animal, and even then there is a possibility for overdose. UVB from a quality lamp allows a reptile to synthesize the small amounts that it needs, just like it would in nature, without the danger of overdosing. This is called "endogenous synthesis." UVB lighting, therefore, is the safest and most effective way to ensure that a captive reptile can properly metabolize calcium."

Note that it said the vet needs to take measurements for a specific animal (not a species as a whole). How can somebody at home know how much D3 to give each of their beardies? How does somebody at home know what measurements need to be taken, or have the knowledge, ability & resources to actually take those measurements, and then know exactly how much supplemental D3 (if any) their animal requires?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

First off, zoomed sell's uvb lighting. I think he might have a little more than good intentions at stake with the statement( my opinion). How can someone at home possible know what to measure. It's actually simple. It has been done for us by the companies that put out what I consider good supplements. Some of those are miner-all I and the t-rex supps(formulated by Allen Repashy). Both these products were tested for years on their own colonies before being released. Both products contian about the same amount of d3/ kilo of product. That amount is 4000I.U.'s. This has proven to be a safe level for pretty liberal usage. Rep-cal has much more d3 than both these products, unless the formulation has changed. That amount was (the last time I checked, I don't have a bottle to look at, maybe someone can help out) something like 400,000 I.U.'s / kilo. A huge difference for the other products, yet it is one of the most popular supps. and used alot by dragon keepers. So what it the upper limit that would induce toxicity? I don't know the answer, but I would expect it is higher than most products on the market could deliver. I would imagine it would take using a product like rep-cal VERY often and quite liberally. Just my take on it.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

You just posted something that has shown that sufficient d3 can come from diet and that in fact you can provide too much. Which is why it isn't used with every feeding for most dragons. Just my take on that statement, yes D3 can be toxic to dragons. But the most used brands (those mentioned by bill) are used by so many people that i wouldn't suspect them of having too much d3. I am sure you yourself use one of those three at least 1 or 2 times a week. Your dragons aren't overdosing on d3, or not getting enough calcium. therefor the supplements either a) have a proper amount of d3 and the bulbs aren't doing much. or b) the supplements aren't providing enough d3 and the bulbs are needed. there is no concrete proof one way or the other.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

another important thing to note here is that only a vet would have access to the active form of d3. vitmain d3 is a very complex set of molecules. The form that is present in most if not all supplements is know as Cholecalciferol. This is an inactive form of the vitamin(hormone actually). When it is ingested, it is converted to a slighlty active form of the vitamin, then in the kidneys is converted to truely active d3. What is my point? What the author of that article has written is kind of misleading.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I've used Rep-Cal Calcium w/ D3 with my turtles for quite some time with no problems and have never heard of D3 toxicity until I got a bearded dragon a a little over two weeks ago. Is it safe to use liberally with a 4 month old dragon?
Or should I get some calcium without D3 and alternate?
Or is it all cholocalciferol (sp?) and it doesn't matter?

For rapidly growing dragons (under a year of so) and for pregnant females I dust their crickets daily. I have been doing so for over the past year. I have never had a dragon that has gotten sick. I do use RepCal with D3. For my adult males or non breeding girls I only dust their crickets 2X a week.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

you can follow Derek's advice. Rep-cal does have the highes amount of d3 of any supp. on the market that i'm aware of. I know people that have used it quite liberally for years. I was just trying to make a point that it is likely VERY difficult to induce a state of toxicity even with this supp. Another thing you can do is get a bottle of the rep-cal without d3 and mix it with the one with d3. The result would still contain more than miner-all I of the t-rex formulas. Which is fine.
Just to give everyone an idea what an I.U is, it stands for International Units. It is a measure of biological activity and is a different amount for different vitamins. It is 40 I.U/microgram for d3. That means that miner-all has about 100 micro grams of d3 / kilo of product, rep-cal would have about 10,000 micrograms/kilo. These are very small amounts. The original post talked about d3 as an ingredient in rodenticides. Although this is try, we are talking about gram amounts, almost pure d3 in these products. This is infinatly more than a microgram amounts added to kilos of calcium carbonate, so it is pointless to even point out.
hope this helps.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

It does! (both replies) I had never heard about any potential for toxicity until I was reading through my "Bearded Dragon Manual" (advanced herp series) and saw that mentioned, with no specifics other than saying that the margin for overdose was narrow. My 6 inch, approx 4 month old has not eaten very well since I got him. He ate 2-3 crickets the night we brought him home, then seemed kiind of lethargic, so I alternated between a 40 watt and 60 watt bulb until I felt like the 60 watt bulb was better. I put a reptile heat pad underneath the 10 gallon tank because I was worried about the overnight temps dropping into the 60s. The heat pad keeps the temps in the low 70s overnight and in the low 80s (during the day with the other lights on). I added a ESU "coil" UVB bulb and have recently been putting that over the highest point "basking area" and put the 60 watt bulb over the midpoint (middle of the tank and the driftwood is at a "mid" point as far as height goes). He seems to be varying his location more with this configuration. I'm one of those that aren't sure how important UVB lights are if you use good supplementation, however I came to that conclusion with baby box turtles and I'm sure that bearded dragons are exposed to a great deal more sunlight in the wild then baby box turtles are, so I was afraid to take a chance and opted for a modestly price bulb to start with. He did seem to perk up a little more when I put it in a week after we got him, but basically his feeding has gone down hill and I am now hand feeding him a mixture of Gerber baby chicken, pedialyte with a small amount of rep-cal calcium/d3 mixed in. The first week I had him he threw up a mass of crickets, small molted mealworms and greens I had fed him the previous day. I ordered some 1/2 inch crickets after worrying that the ones I had purchased at petsmart were too big and he initially went after those with gusto but quickly lost interest and would only eat molted mealworms (and I'm worrying about giving him those, but do give them to him thinking that is better than nothing. Then late last week he got where he wouldn't eat at all, so I decided to try the force feed mixture. He loves it and eats it eagerly and seems a little better, but he is still not interested in crickets or mealworms(or greens). He really isn't showing any other symptoms, but lack of interest in eating (except for the baby food mixture). I've been soaking him at least once a day in shallow bowl with a mix of pedialyte and tap water.
My basking bulb is a regular household bulb, should I try specialiized basking bulb? I've been putting off a trip to the vet, because after reading what the likely problems might be (adenovirus or coccida), if its adenovirus, the only thing that you can do is offer supportive care and hope that they make it, and if its coccida and they're weak, they might not survive the treatement, so I opted to try the force-feed mixture first and if he gets stronger but still doesn't eat, I might see about getting a fecal done. But...is there anything that could be causing this that isn't illness related?
Thanks for any info! Lisa

Ok I am a little confused by your temperature readings. This is a pretty important thing. I personally hate UTH. They get the bottom surface of the tank way too hot. I mean hot enough to cause burns if you use paper as a substrate. You say with the UTH the temps are in the 70s is that the air temp? If it is the floor temp is probably in the 100s. To safely use a UTH you need to either use a thermostat or a rheostat. And rheostats are tricky. I burned a ball just last week using one. I feel like a moron. All the temperature you should measure are surface temps. If I were you I would can the UTH, the 60s is a fine temp for them, maybe a little low. If you are really worried I would give him a red light or black light of a lower wattage than that used for the heat light. The temp where his basking spot is should read 110F right on the surface. I personally would spend $35 to get a infrared thermocouple. They are advitised on the classifieds. I think radioshack carries them also. The dial ones from the pet store are worthless. Digitals are ok but I don't really care for them they don't measure true surface temps. The cool end of your dragons tank should be about 80 degrees. what size tank is it that you are using? If you are using a standard 60 watt house bulb I would recomend going out to buy a 40 watt halogen flood bulb, from home depot. They produce much brighter light. Generally bright light leads to a better appetite. Also instead of the uv coil light I would go out and buy a zoomed reptisun 5.0 light that runs the length of you cage. again the more light the bigger the appetite will be. I would definately get a fecal done. it is worth the money. dragons are tough little guys and generally pull through. the only parasite problem isn't coccidia. there are worms and other protozoans. all are really easily treatable. you said you just got the dragon which means that his setup has changed which leads to stress which can lead to a breakout of parasites. if left untreated they will get worse and worse until they overcome your dragon. a fecal is usually under $30 and the treatment is usually dirt cheap. Where do you live someone could recomend a decent vet. I would really look into the temps though. They to me seem like they could be the culprit. I would also let him be for a few days. Offer him salad crickets and mealies. Do not force feed him, it causes stress. Answer the above questions and maybe we can point you in the appropriate direction.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Well, keep in mind that I've got at least 2 1/2 inches of sand (play sand) as a substrate. And, this heat pad is small covers less than 1/4 of the bottom of this 10 gallon tank (yes I will be moving him to a bigger tank as he gets larger).
I just pulled out a meat thermometer and stuck in the sand, 1/4 inch deep, right over the pad, I was getting temp readings in the low 90s. On the end away from the heat pad, I was getting readings in the high 80s. When I am not using the digital thermometer to take other readings, I leave the probe hanging down close to the substrate (but not necessarily touching the substrate) and I get readings in low to mid 70s at night and low to mid 80s with the lights on.
I see what you mean about surface temps though, that would be measuring the air temp that the dragon would be experiencing, but not the surface temps. I do think the surface temps I was getting with the meat thermometer might have been influenced by the lights which were off at the time I took the reading, but had recently been on. I'll try another reading tonight after the lights have been off for awhile. The sand didn't feel warm to the touch (over the heat pad) but it didn't feel cool either. Away from the heat pad it felt slightly cool to the touch. I really am not force feeding, I started out putting a dab of the mixture on his nose and he licked it off, now he just licks it as I slowly push it out of the syringe. He stops licking when he wants to stop. Still, I'd feel better if he were chasing crickets.

I measured his basking spot by taping the probe in place on the spot I wanted to measure, still I guess thats not measuring the actual surface temp that the wood is reflecting. Both the 40 and 60 watt bulbs have a very narrow area where the heat is too high (over 120), but if you move the probe an inch away from that spot, the temp drops to around 110 degrees and I notice that Caveman positions himself in that area or slightly further out. Still, I'd be more comfortable if I could find a bulb that didn't produce such a hot spot. How would a halogen bulb be in that respect? When I think of a halogen bulb, I think of something really hot, but maybe they've changed them?
I might unplug the heat for the rest of the day and plug it in at night and take more readings after the lights have been out.
I thought the UH pad might be ok with a thick substrate between the bottom of the tank and the animal, which is what I do with my baby box turtles.
Thanks for your comments and let me know what you think.
Lisa

With that this of a substrate you should be fine with the uth. but it is something to keep an eye on. the halogen i think produces a more even heat but with a 10 gallon i don;t know what wattage would work. Maybe as low as a 25 watt bulb or a standard house bulb with a strip light. that all seems to be correct. so i would now try and get a fecal done.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

So would you worry about the surface temps of the substrate being in the high 80s or low 90s? He stays on his driftwood most of the day. He ate a couple of molted mealworms this afternoon but I could not get him interested in crickets, I got a small cricket by the hind leg and held it in front of him, and it was like he didn't even see it.
I put him down on the floor of the tank and let a couple of crickets loose and he didn't seem to see those, he did see the mealworm in my fingers though.

Mealworms are like a nice fatty whopper, and a cricket is like a nice healthy subway sandwich. He has you around his big toe. He gets the whopper all the time. If you wait he will go back to the crickets. If he always gets mealies he will not eat the crickets.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

oh 80-90s is okay for a ground surface temp.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com