Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I understand that F1 means first filial generation....but what does that mean? Is F1 the offspring of unrelated parents (P), and F2 the inbred offspring of F1, and so on, and so forth?

Thanks in advance,
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Matt

The F1 generation is the result from a parental cross. For instance....
Parental A X Parental B
Yields offspring which are F1 AB
F1 basically means that the parents involved in the cross were unrelated.
Now say you took the F1 offspring AB and crossed them with C
They are still F1's because this is a new cross of unrelated individuals.
The F2 generation would be crossing an F1 AB with another F1 AB. Basically, this is inbreeding but it can be helpful if one wants to maintain a desirable trait or to develop it more- selective breeding.
Hope this isn't confusing.
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Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

no, I think that clears it up.

Thanks
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Matt

What would you class breeding F1 (AB) with A or B?

Ok good question. I am somewhat qualified to answer this.
Technically one would only use P (parental) and F1 if they were trying to follow a trait.
I was a little vague in my answer before. One should only use the descriptors parental and f1 to describe generations
if the parents are both homozygous for a trait (or group thereof)and you want to follow it.
Now if one was to cross a parent with the offspring (F1) than the resultant would be what is known as a
"back cross". This is not designated F1 or F2, etc... It is just simply a back cross. Now if the parents
are not known to be genetically from different lineages; for example, if one was to breed their pairs of darts with
unknown lineages than the parents would not be called the parental generation, but the male would be the "sire" and the female
the "dam". The resultant offspring would be called "hybrids". This can be a little confusing but it makes sense.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone (or myself for that matter). Hope the question was answered.

Cheers,
-----
Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

Thanks.
A little hard to follow, but you readily saw where I was going with the question, i.e. the triat. I was a little fearful that you might think I was just trying to be funny.
Again thanks, as I'm presently breeding some of my fish, I want to keep some species as broad genetically as possible and I have another that I want to work with finage and color, thus some "back crossing" my need to be done. This is a prelude to me getting more involved in frogs and any breeding with them. I see that many in the hobby are being very concerned about the linage and I am as well.

No problem. It is always nice for me to know that my education does matter and that it can be put into use. I understand this concern over lineages, but I almost think that it is irrational for someone to advertise their animals as F1's because this system is just a model and only used when the traits are known. It is pretty much hypothetical in most cases and hard to apply to animals in the pet trade. Even within natural populations themselves there is some inbreeding. Unless one has the genetic proof, they shouldn't even attempt to sell "multiple bloodlines" becasue it is usually based largely on hearsay. I honestly couldn't tell antone where the anscestors of my captive animals were collected from. I could say the country of origin but not the type locality. Well, good luck with the fish (sounds interesting- sailfin mollies?)and frogs.
-----
Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

Interesting and good guess on the fish, but actually it is Pelvicachromis pulcher. Commonly known as the kribensis (from its older scientific name of Pelmatochromis kribensis). This one I'm only interested to keep from having to much inbreeding as I'm going to let my local pet store have my overflow (they breed like crazy) and I prefer not to let a weakened line get into the hobby. That said, I have no history of the pairs that I have other then they came from different pet stores but could be the same breeder.
The other is Betta splendens. This one I want to try and get as good of an emerald green and a canary yellow as I can. The yellow(deep yellow) is rather rare and the green I want will not show any traces of the red. The finnage is of less importance, but who knows?
I must confest that most of this is just for fun, but I also want to be responsible.
I have an interest in the frogs but I'm not looking to tinker with the gene pool until I have a much better understanding and experience.
I have had some exposure to grafting, cloning, leaf cultures, ect. with woody plants (shrubs and trees).
I have you "bookmarked" as being the person I will be bugging with my questions, if your willing.
Thanks for your prompt replies!

Kribensis? Aren't they some type of South American cichlid? I have been keeping some fire-mouthed meekies for some time and am also partial to rams (Germans of course). Betta's are also very interesting. I have only seen the ones in captivity and often wonder what the wild type ones look like. Sounds like a fun project. Anyway, it is good to be a responsible person and I don't see any harm in inbreeding. You just have to remember that you are increasing your likelyhood of anomalies or sensitivities to pathogens. However, this is not always the case. It's funny... I have seen a website advertising corn snakes with no scales. The woman said that in order to get this trait she had to go through tons of back crosses. Personally, I would not tinker with a species to the point where I was getting phenotypes that seemed to be completely unkind to the animal. Breeding for different colors ok thats fine, but how about a scaleless fish? I mean there are very good reasons why these animals have scales! Anyway, I am not bothered by questions and invite them open armed. The answers may not always be there though.

have fun,
-----
Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

By the way, have you ever grafted a pear tree branch to an apple tree? I did it over the summer and couldn't believe that it would take! I started making mutant trees in my backyard once I learned of this and my neighbors all think that I am like the Dr. Frankenstein of botany....lol.
-----
Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

Pears/apple. I can say I never thought of that. Interesting!
I would like to see the snake to see if it "really" is scaleless or if they are just very fine, or some pigment layer that is causing light reflection to make them "appear" as not existing.
Kribensis is a Cichlid from Africa. It is from the river areas of the Congo (if memory serves me right). Their requirements are closer to that of the South American Cichlids. (They may have been what went with Africa when the continents separated).
Rams. Ah yes, I love them. Only reason I haven't purchased is I haven't found really good coloring around here and I believe they are rather short lived (aprox. 2yrs.) How long have you had them?
Splendens have gone through about as much (not quite, a little overstatement) as the goldfish.
As for any breeding, I'm not looking to alter or exploit any mutations to crate something that isn't what I started with.
Thanks for the insight.

I have also tried transplanting branches of one pine tree to another and remarkably they take really well....reminds me of the cheetahs and how they are so genetically similar to one another that they can actually transplant organs without the worries of organ rejection.

That's right Kribensis are from Africa... with so many cichlid species it is easy to get them confused. My blue rams are actually about six months old. My meekies are close to about 2 and my dempsies are around a year. All in separate tanks of course.

Bettas seem to be remarkably tough fish. I once had a friend that forgot that he had one and left it in his apartment for about three months whhile he went on sebatical. He didn't feed it at all before leaving and the animal was still alive. I almost feel bad for them in those little bowls.

The scaleless snake truely had no scales but just an outer epidermis with no pattern. They were a pinkish red color due to the fact that there was no scales to cover up the circulatory systems network of vessels. Still sickens me to think about it.
-----
Justin
stk18119@loki.stockton.edu

D.auratus
D.leucomelas
D.tinctorius (lorenzo, yellowback, citro, pb, oyopock,etc.)
D.azureus
D.ventrimaculatus (yellow/gold)
D.pumilio (blue jeans, solid red)
P.aurotaenia (narrow bands/green)
P.bicolor
E.tricolor (Santa Isabel)
H. leucophyllata
P. hypochondrialis azurea
P. resinfictrix
etc.......

Ok, you got my attention again! pine to pine, ok. Tell me that at least they were both 2 needle pines such a Scots to Black. Actually, now that I think of it, they wouldn't have to be. It's very common to graft Japanese White Pines (5 needle) to Japanese Black pine (2 needle) trunks (Bonsai). I had one, makes it tricky when the winter time comes here in CT. The white likes very cold temp. to go dormant and black can't take as cold a temp. so it gets tricky to get it cold enough yet no go to far. I let my son take can of this tree for awhile. He didn't get the knack. Dead tree!

Am I correct about the expected life span on the Blue Rams. You have gotten me thinking about getting them.

Bettas are a very hardy lot. High tolerance to temp. spreads, water conditions, eating requirements. They really don't need a lot of water, however, I keep them in 1/2 gallon containers min., up to 10 gals.

I have a male and female in my 35 gal. (which was being set-up for a leopard frog) and they just layed eggs, so the leopard is going to have to stay in the 10 gal.(which I added an addition 6" in ht.) a little while longer. I put him into the 10 a month ago (just after purchase) to observe him for a period. He seems quite content there. He's about 2" long so hasn't had the urge to roam. I'm sure the constant available food supply is key.

Let me know about the Rams life span!
Later.