Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Seems to be a lot of interest in pacmans here lately. I am no expert, having only kept frogs for 7 yrs. now but I am willing to share a few things I have learned. First is, pacmans aren't for every one, its horrendous that Petsmart and Petco sell them, we have two "rescued" ones from a Petco, in retrospect I suppose we shouldn't have bought them, that encourages the co. to go out and buy more but at the time we felt so sorry for them that we felt we had no choice. The thing with the aforementioned stores is that they are known for mistreating their animals, maybe not intentionally, but their sales people are usually teenagers who know little to nothing about reptiles or amphibians. Pacmans have a mean bite, my husband ( I no longer care to handle them) has been bit on several occasions by our frogs, they have a boney plate at the back of their mouths , it breaks the skin, it hurts and they hang on! Selling them as childrens' pets is outrageous, they could inflict a very painful bite to small hands (and large ones too!). In fact, last summer my husband was cleaning cages upstairs and I heard him yell "get up here! he's got me!", I dashed upstairs figuring one of the pythons had wrapped itself around him, carrying a bottle of vodka (theoretically to pour in the snake's mouth if it was biting, or drink myself if I arrived too late, LOL!), to my surprise, my husband was jumping about the room with "Hannibal" (he has that name for a reason) hanging off one of his fingers! Hannibal is one of our pacmans. We dunked Hannibal, hubby's hand and all, in a bucket of water and the frog released him. These days we use a large goldfish net to catch the frogs.
We have read lots of books and consulted other frog owners and so called "experts" and found lots of conflicting information. All I can say is try different things and whatever happens to work for you, works for you! We have a very large female pacman that we have had going on 5 yrs, she is kept in a 10 gallon tank with moss substrate and a water bowl. We also have a pair of males that we've had also going on 5 yrs, they share a 10 gallon tank with moss substrate and a bowl also. Many people will say they need big tanks, ours don't do much, they sit in one position in the moss for days on end, we kept Gwen, our big female in a 30 gallon long tank for a yr, it was a waste of space, she did the same thing she does in the 10, burrow in the moss and stay put! If the substrate gets too dry (we mist it several times a wk and a couple times a day in the winter) they will go and sit in the water bowl. We feed them minnows almost exclusively. Early on we tried pinky and fuzzy mice, that was the only time we had frog fatalities, we theorize the mice were parasitized and caused the frogs' demise. Yes, minnows could also have parasites but we have been lucky these past yrs. They are a cheap, easily obtained source around here (southern Mn) , we get them at the bait shop. We occasionally dust some worms with a vitamin calcium powder and feed them. The frogs, incidentally, have the live minnows put in their water pans and they sit in there and catch them themselves. Be careful with the vitamin calcium stuff by the way, very easy to overdose them, we have lost frogs that way too. We have a dwarf african bullfrog we have had the same amount of time, he is treated exactly the same way. The only time the frogs are very active is when they see another frog through the glass, they will sometimes try to get at the frog (although the two who live together show no interest in each other til feeding time, then we separate them as they will attack each other in a feeding frenzy) and jump or scramble against the glass ( we then put a magazine in between the cages to block the view). When the barometer drops and rain is coming or after feeding, we will hear them croaking , it can be deafening but never goes on very long, a few loud calls every half hour or so. Pacmans are capable of an amazing array of sounds, from a tweet that sounds like a canary to raucous loud barks. The african sounds like a growling dog.
As I mentioned earlier in the forum, we keep them heated with 60 watt bulbs positioned next to their cages, and nope, we never turn them off. I know some folks were astonished by this, but as I said, my record speaks for itself, the frogs are fine, fat and healthy, we've had them almost 5 yrs and they weren't babies when we got them.
They are interesting creatures if you don't expect them to do too much! Sort of like live pet rocks.
My advice to novice pacman owners is to read all you can, check out forums like this and sift the advice to what you can use, trial and error is the way you learn. Don't buy from big chain petstores and remember its easier to maintain adult frogs than the darling yet somewhat delicate baby froglets you often see for sale. And watch your hands!

Personally, I think they make great kids pets. I have been keeping herps most of my life, and honestly for the family that doesn't want a snake, horned frogs are second only to leopard geckos. As far biting, the kids should not have their hands in the tank anyway. As for most of them being teenagers, I have seen my fair share or adults buying them as well, so don't make the generalization.

I agree wholeheartedly on the subject of mice. I used to feed mice, some of my horned frogs have died, and none of my frogs have had them in years. However, fish are not much better. As you said there is the issue of parasites. I am not sure if you have ever done a fecal on some of these frogs, but personally it is not pretty. I would rather just feed my frogs a "cleaner" food than something that is KNOWN FOR A FACT to be EXTREMELY high in parasites, especially since bait fish are to be used as bait, and much like comets, the store could care less if they are sick, dead, or dying, because there are used for even dead minnows. Protozoans, bacteria, and other undesirables are all effects of feeding a stereotypically high in parasite food.

But as you said, what works for someone is their own business whether I agree with it or not. I am at least glad that you recognize the possibility of things such as parasites in feeding baitfish and tell others about it. Very reasonable

Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Wow, that was a long post with some interesting information. I guess I'm just commenting on some of what you wrote and I'll reply in the order that you wrote it.

I agree that horned frogs are not for everyone. I often recomend them as a good first frog because they are availible as captive bred animals and are very tough frogs that can put up with the common mistakes made by begginers. They do have a powerful bite and its very important to be aware of that when purchasing one. That cute little dime sized dot with eyes will grow quickly into a giant finger chompin' machine.

If you do a search about horned frogs on google.com you get overwhelmed with conflicting information. Keep horned frogs on gravel, don't keep horned frogs on gravel, horned frogs grow to 8 inches in length, horned frogs grow to 5 inches in length, etc. etc. etc. I agree that there is not just one way to keep animals but there deffinetly are ways that are better than others. Finding what works best for you is not a good way to care for frogs. Finding what works well for frogs is and there are certain ways of keeping frogs that meet their care requirements better than others.

I don't understand why you or anyone else would ever risk keeping two horned frogs together. Horned frogs are eating machines that are designed to eat other frogs. It is not a good idea to keep two horned frogs in the same cage. Although the risk of two similar sized adults that are well fed and in a large cage eating each other isn't that large it is still a risk. I feel that a very important responsibility of someone that keeps amphibians in captivity is to provide the best care conditions possible for that animal. A simple cage divider would eliminate the risk of one frog eating the other, thats all. I see no reason not to do that if you can.

I like your comparison of horned frogs to live pet rocks and I like your advice at the end. Its increadibly important to read all the information availible about an animal that you plan to keep. Trial and error should be avoided if you are just starting out though, it is not the way for a begginer to learn. Someone who is interested in getting a frog should read about them, purchase one and keep it under ideal care conditions. They should not guess and check to see what works well, thats why frogs die in captivity. Just my two cents,
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
3.2 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys scripta
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

If you read lots of info on pacmans, you will find they are found on the plains in Argentina and other south American countries where they mostly estivate til the rains come. They are found in large numbers at that time. They are not all eating each other. Thats why we have kept the two males together (except for feeding time when they go crazy anyhow) for almost five years. With no problems.
As far as my comments on trial and error, sorry folks, but in the real world thats how one learns, I ain't backin' down on that one! We went "by the book" on our first couple frogs and lost them. Gradually we found out what works for THEM in our home,maybe I didn't phrase it right initially. Let me assure you, our animals live long lives because we take good care of them, not cuz we are trying to make things as easy as possible on us, gimme a break!
Its fine to disagree and tell me I am doing everything wrong for my frogs, it just tells me that you yourself have figured out something different thats working for you and your frogs. Cool. But please don't waste time trying to chop me up , as I said, our frogs are almost five yrs. with us now, how many of you can say that? This is a FORUM, go ahead and list your thoughts and ideas, thats what this is for. Sometimes I find stuff here that has helped me, something not in the books, something I didn't think of. But until someone is having trouble, their animals sick or dying, don't be so sure that there is only ONE way to do anything.

First, sorry if part of the last post that I wrote sounded like an attack, I didn't mean for it to. Now that I've re-read the post it does sound kind of aggressive, sorry about that.

Yes, horned frogs are often found together in large numbers in the wild during the breeding season after they estivate. I'm also sure that some do get eaten. They are cannabalistic animals. Unless your frogs are breeding or shut down estivating you can't gaurantee that one won't attempt to eat the other. It sounds like you DO take good care of your animals and you DO care a lot about them but it just doesn't make sense to keep horned frogs together when they could be kept seperate just as easily. I feel that everyone who is keeping an animal in captivity has the responsiblity to care for it as best they can and in a safe way.

I deffinetly agree with you, trial and error is how we learn. Almost everything ever known about anything went through that process. In order to make progress in the way that we care for our animals we do need to try different techniques and figure out new ways to keep amphibians but I don't think this should be done with someone's first frog. Someone who is just starting to keep amphibians shouldn't start tossing horned frogs together in the same cage or leaving the lights on 24/7, they should first care for them in a way that has been proven to work well and learn about the animals behavior and needs before they start experimenting. I'm not trying to say that what you are doing is wrong or a horrible way to keep horned frogs, please don't take it like that. I'm just trying to express my views on what you wrote about horned frogs and first time horned frog keepers.

I've been keeping my horned frog for 8 years in a different way than you have been caring for yours. Both of our frogs sound like they are healthy and thriving. I think this just proves that horned frogs are very adaptable amphibians that can be kept in different styles with equal success. Talk to you later,
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
3.2 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys scripta
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

Actually they are eating each other. Most of a horned frogs diet in the wild is comprised of other frogs, not only of the same species though.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Andy you little stinker!
Sorry if I sounded too defensive, we do the best we can for our critters and I was a little p-o-ed at being deemed irresponsible. Yes, frogs are adaptable hardy little beings for the most part! And I agree, novice frog owners should thoroughly read everything they can find and do everything they can to educate themselves about the their new pets before even buying them. And it makes sense to go with the tried and true, just in my case, I couldn't find any real consensus on tried and true! And many times I have been guilty of telling someone "that won't work, you shouldn't do it that way" only to find out it works just fine for them, but for whatever variable didn't work for me.And I wish I would have known about this forum a long time ago, might've saved a few lives.

I went with the tried and true method at the beginning and my first two died, but not because of the care, a lot of times when we haven't seen enough of these frogs we can't tell they are healthy for sure or not or maybe that frog just wasn't meant to have a very long life span. I still try to use the tried and true methods for my frogs, but I do do some stuff differently, but I have also kept these frogs since about 1996 and have been through my share of mistakes with them, and some of them do die for no apparent reason.
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http://joshmilliken.tripod.com/

How very true! Thats why, IN GENERAL, I don't approve of big chain stores like Petco and Petsmart selling amphibians and reptiles, so many of these little guys need such specialized care and the average person who buys from one of these stores has no clue what they're getting into and the animals are the victims. There really isn't a wealth of info. on keeping pacmans and such in captivity.

Personally, I do not feed fish to my HFs. My friend owns a pet shop, and I see how the bait minnows come in from the distributor; about a thousand of them, in a plastic bag, full of the smell of ammonia. And a quarter of them are usually dead on arrival. Who would know how many parasites they harbor? I use my homegrown nightcrawlers as a staple diet, and homegrown crickets on occasion.
Mice have to be the worst commonly-fed item, though. I admit, I was ignorant back in the mid 90's (well not really ignorant, since there was nothing in any of the books I read to contradict me) But I was feeding mice and fish exclusively to a Cranwells, and he developed blindness frrom lipid buildup and died. This had to be back in '96, well before any Internet sites were available to me.
Now, I like to think I have the horned frog thing down-pet. I've had my current albino female for over two years now, and she was already pretty sizable when I bought her from the local pet shop. Fecals show that she has no parasite infestation, and she is a real nice size and eats great. I have her in a 10g (I agree with you on that, a bigger tank is pretty much wasted on these frogs.) As long as it is cleaned out regularly, since smaller tanks can get dirtier quicker, obviously! I like the coco-fiber bedding because it is soil-like. That and a shallow waterbowl make up my tank.

I would avoid putting multiple horned frogs in the same tank, to avoid transmission of infections or parasites. But if they are eating fish, they probably already have them.

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*~Ginevive~*
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