Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since this seems to be a popular topic these days, lets see what you all think of these couple of babies based on head shape, dorsal pattern and tail banding. Although the picture is not very good because it has been cropped off a larger photo, you can still see that the one snake has an alomst white prebutton. What do you think?
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np

I suspect the "Rich G. Rule" does not apply to neonates and that the characteristically black basal segment may develop ontogenetically. WW's photo (below) does not seem at all unusual for a snake of that age. I seem to remember a few very young atrox collected here in south Texas that did indeed have light-colored basal segments, but I do not recall ever seeing an adult from this area being so colored. I could be wrong, but I will pay more attention to this in the future!

Tom Lott

That's one reason I have to agree that the photo that necoris posted is just a baby atrox. When it comes to neonates I think all bets are off.

w w w . f i e l d h e r p e r s . c o m

Here is a photo of the mother and her babies. She was a snake call pickup that was ready to pop the day I picked her up. Looking back at this photo she was actually a really pretty animal. She had an awesome chocolate color with an orange tail.

My point is that many young atrox can look similar to scutes when they are actually just pure blood dbacks.

Good photo, good exercise and it backs up what we said below about that other little guy that was posted.

Thanks Hugh. That was my intention. I just wanted to show that looks can often be decieving in young rattlesnakes. Baby viridis are even more difficult to discern sometimes.
Speaking of viridis, what are your thoughts on that little viridis posted by our German friend below? Abyssus, concolor or hopi? My first thought was that it looked like a small abyssus but it appears to be an adult. It has some concolorish traits as well but could possibly pass for a pretty hopi too.

Well, if this is not another trick question (LOL), I'd say hopi. I don't really see any concolor in it, but they are all so variable and overlapping.

It could even be an exceptionally pretty prairie from west Texas. I seen some of them that remind me of Hopi's, but my guess for that schlangen es und hopi.

in the photo. But do you know what the father is? I wholeheartedly agree, all bets are off with neonates, yellow basal segments on baby atrox turn black with time (scute basal segments aren't usually all yellow anyway, they are usually black on the upper half and yellow on the lower half.BTW, the last black ring on the tail is usually only on the upper half and the basal segment corresponds with that)But is appears to me in the first pic that the babies have a series of paired scales on teh heads that look very scute-like. Am I seeing that correctly?

As for the viridis complex snake in the photo, I think it is a concolor. The blotches do not seem to extend as far down laterally as those of what was formerly nuntius, and the head pattern is definately that of the abyssus or concolor clade, it doesn't look at all viridis to me. Only location could tell us for sure. It could be one of the abyssus types from north of the Kaiparowitz Plateau also. I don't think it is from anywhere south of Page.

ref the mother.

The jury is still out on the father but they think it might be me
JK....The snake was picked up from the east end of south mountain where I have never seen a scute before. I'm sure they do exist there because I have seen neonates as far up as the summit of south mtn. (I had no idea they would be up there) I'll have to look and see if I have any other shots of the babies that might show the head scalation better but I am pretty sure I only took a couple pics and they were not very good.

I think I agree on the viridis being a concolor but maybe whoever posted that picture will read this and let us know for sure.

Well you guys have seen a lot more of these viridis subspecies (or clines or clades or whatever they call them this week) than I have, but with what I have seen, I still lean towards a pretty Hopi. I am going by the prominence of those lateral blotches, the white edge around the dark line of the dorsal blotches and my over all greatest tool: the guess! I have not seen anough concolor to know... same for abyssus, only a few seen.

To me viridis are like milksnakes. Poorly defined and lots of overlap in characters. I am not ragging on those who have tried, but the variation in this group could drive any systematist to despair. I found a fairly young prairie from dagger flats in Big Bend Ntl Park in the late 70's that looks very similar to that photo. I have a slide of it somewhere... And we all know that does not look like most prairies either.

Maybe the photographer will enlighten us with the species or local??

Klapperschlangen # 2 Same kind as the other. Dropped 3 healthy babies for me this year. 18" also.

in both size and appearance that snake could be either a concolor or an A2 clade(extreme northern Az. and southcentral Utah) abyssus, but considering the appearance of the first snake (and assuming they came from the same locality) I think I will stick with concolor.

Well schlangen number 2 looks like a concolor to me also... certainly not very hopi looking. So it is probably an abyssus!

Maybe they crossed all three??? LOL!!!

This shows the high variability we have been discussing in this group. I appreciate everyones tutellage... I guess I should get my as&%$#s out of the southern mountains and Mexico and go poke around up north huh? I look forward to the answer.

abyssus seems to me the second most variable crote in the state next to mitchelli. Even in hte same locality each individual is often different. And just when we think we have seen it all another specimen comes along to dumbfound us.

Come on up sometime. Drag that slacking cousin of mine (Reservist Lane)up with ya,

You must be about frozen right now. I just saw the news a few minutes ago and Flag was 15 degrees. Now I know why I live in the valley.

"thats ezackly right Hank!" To add to it all I have somekinda bug and accompanying fever so I am really feelin' it. Only another 5 months to go! LOL!

Hope you feel better soon...

It's cold here too. Only three baby gopher snakes seen in the last four days, oh yeah, and one patch-nosed too.

At least your still seeing something. Atrox have been the only thing I have seen in a month.

No complaints from me. We see stuff all year here and that's just fine with me! Not so in the NE where I grew up.

We visit our montane study areas in SE AZ. all year and find lepidus and willardi out all year.

I know what your saying about growing up in the NE. By this time of year I am used to a few snowfalls.

I envy you still being able to see snakes this time of year. Flag is nice (in the summer,lol) but I really miss Tucson.

This animal looks more like an abyssus to me than the first one but I think it could go either way. Based on the small size of #1 I would think concolor but I have seen some tiny abyssus too.

OK we give, what the heck are they SGR?

I tried to sharpen the photo a bit to bring out the head scalation better but it's not great. The one I have an arrow pointing to shows the larger plate like scales that you were talking about. I guess hybridization in a more common occurance than I thought.