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D3 Controversy

sotik Nov 21, 2003 01:54 PM

Ok, awhile ago I had a discussion with someone regarding sunlight exposure to gecksos as it applies to Vitamin D3. There's this big hullabaloo about whether D3 is needed in reptiles and how much is too much. What I'm going to post is what I know about D3 and my opinion. Please feel free to post your thoughts on the subject, as well.

(and my apologies, in advance, if it's not terribly organized or sounds confusing - I'm pulling it from my logs; you should catch my basic points)

UV radiation helps to trigger Vitamin D production in the skin. Humans don't really need it since most foods have vitamins and [bleep] added. Some people wonder if keeping their geckos inside prevents them from triggering D3 synthesis, since windows naturally block UVA radiation and some windows are treated to block UVB. Therefore, supplementation is needed to add D3 to their diet, to ensure it does it's thing (if you don't know what it does, I'll cover that in a bit).

So goes the theory, anyway.

Keeping geckos in a sunlight room or a dark room makes no difference with the D3 issue. I have to question what the big concern is about, actually, since they are nocturnal. Nocturnal animals don't require UV exposure to trigger the Vitamin D synthesis in their skin. Here's how the D3 process works in animals...

* the liver produces something called....well, I forget the name, but it's precursor-D, for short (not the chemical name)

* it moves to the skin and when exposed to mid-level UV it turns into something else. I don't know the name offhand (lol), but it's essentially a pre-vitamin-D

* the liver and kidneys make more changes to it, turning it into proper vitamin D (D3); part of the process is body temperature..the normal temp of an animal is enough to trigger it.

Other points to conisder...

* UV exposure isn't needed if calcium is introduced into the body (well...a form of calcium)

* provided you get the calcium -- other nutrients are important, but calciferol is the trigger for synthesis -- you don't need UV exposure, period.

* nocturnal animals have no D-deficiency problems, normally - they pick it up in their diet; same goes for any animal with fur (no direct skin exposure to UV); same goes for burrowing animals who see no sun; marine life, too

What does D3 do?

* regulates blood levels of calcium and phosphorous (increases or decreases absorbtion in the small intestine, as needed)...helps the bones maintain proper levels (stimulates bone cell uptake of those minerals).

(actually...D vitamin is unique in the way it stimulates absorbtion.....usually that's a function of hormones. *shrugs* that's why they always push women and kids to drink milk....lack of calcium and phosphorous lead to osteoporosis)

Also, D is also the most toxic of the vitamins....so too much is bad; but since no one can agree on the proper levels for geckos, you'll have to experiment to see what kills your gecko and what doesn't (it's a joke, relax). With people, though, it's like 10-15 times the recommended level before toxic effects manifest.

My opinion: geckos don't need D3 supplementation, but it doesn't hurt. In fact, it might be a good idea with juveniles and pregnant geckos to toss a little in their diet, since they have special nutritional needs. How much is too much? I think it depends on the D3 content in the supplements, but I suspect toxicity isn't a huge issue unless you are forcing your gecko to take in inordinate amounts of D3 (animals have natural processes to control things like that). D3 is not needed if you provide them plenty of Calcium...there should be no problem - let them regulate Calcium intake themselves (just make sure it's available).

Your turn.
-----
-Marcus The Great
Owner, 1.1 Leopard Geckos (T^2)
Master, sotik.com
Photographer, imesho.com

Replies (4)

azteclizard Nov 21, 2003 03:35 PM

Great post. You have the processes pretty much right. The only thing that I disagree with is that geckos don't need a supp. with d3 in it. I learned this one the hard way years ago. Growing geckos(whether nocturnal or not) NEED a supplemental source of d3 when kept in captivity. Granted probably very small amounts. There is not one product on the market that could delivery the amounts of d3 needed to cause a toxic response. The highest amount that I know of is rep-cal with 400,000 I.U./kilo. I know people that have used this product for years without problems. You have to really over due it with this supplement to cause problems. Products like miner-all I and the t-rex leopard gecko supp. contain 4000 I.U./kilo. This is has been shown to be a safe level for very liberal use. All this fear of d3 overdose is nonsense. It is much better to use these supps. to be sure than to not use them and wind up with a gecko with twisted limbs.
-----
Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

GoldenGateGeckos Nov 22, 2003 06:15 AM

A couple of years ago, I spoke to Roger Klingenberg, DVM., and we had a discussion on this very subject. Basically, what he said mirrored these posts.. Leos don't really need it, but it shouldn't hurt. He could not recall any case of hypercalcemia in Leopard Geckos, and also commented that it takes a lot of neglect for them to develop MBD.

I would also like to add that since Leopard Geckos are primarily nocturnal, their skin is not adapted for UV exposure and therefore do not process Vitamin D the same way other animals do. VitD is a catalyst for calcium absorption into the system in order assimilate it more efficiently. Calcium is not only needed for building and maintaining bone mass, but keeps smooth muscles functioning and much more.

On a personal note, I have used calcium supplements with VitD for my Leos for over 12 years and feel it may actually be better for growing juveniles and egging females than without.
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

sotik Nov 25, 2003 06:33 PM

>>I would also like to add that since Leopard Geckos are primarily nocturnal, their skin is not adapted for UV exposure and therefore do not process Vitamin D the same way other animals do. VitD is a catalyst for calcium absorption into the system in order assimilate it more efficiently. Calcium is not only needed for building and maintaining bone mass, but keeps smooth muscles functioning and much more.
>>
>>On a personal note, I have used calcium supplements with VitD for my Leos for over 12 years and feel it may actually be better for growing juveniles and egging females than without.

I agree. And not just because it reiterates my post.
(ok, that is why )
-----
-Marcus The Great
Owner, 1.1 Leopard Geckos (T^2)
Master, sotik.com
Photographer, imesho.com

sotik Nov 25, 2003 06:31 PM

I agree that it's difficult to over-supplement - even if you've not really got an idea about what you're doing.

But why do you say it was the D3 that cause their limb problems? All D3 does is help calcium absorption, but even w/o it a blanced diet should provide enough calcium. It seems to me that limb prolems would be more symptomatic of a calcium-deficiency (if it was indeed related to that, and not a result of sickness or infection or anything).
-----
-Marcus The Great
Owner, 1.1 Leopard Geckos (T^2)
Master, sotik.com
Photographer, imesho.com

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