Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I asked you a question regarding platyrhinos a few threads down. I'm really curious where you found the information to substantiate your claim that in the wild, 20-30% of their diet is composed of rodents. Let me know. Shane

Sorry I missed that.

With all of the misinformation spread around these forums, especially information associated with hognoses, I can assure you that the statistics are can be found in the scientific literature.

Consult Snakes of Virginia, by Linzey and Clifford, "major food items, by volume, were toads 40 percent, frogs and 30 percent, salamanders 11 percent, and small mammals (mouse and chipmunk) 19 percent". Of course this is only speaking of Easterns, and those found in Virginia. I am unable to locate the source that gave me the 30 percent range at this time (who knows?!). Perhaps in the near future I will do a full-blown literature search on hognoses, and report any of my interesting findings here.

Even if you choose to ignore the significant portion of the hognoses diet consisting of rodents, no one can say that hognoses are exclusively ranivores, when every source of literature I've ever read lists everything from salamanders to turtle eggs to birds...even carrion.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Well, I don't have that one in my library, but thanks for the reference. 19% is as good as 30% for me. Most of my references state that platyrhinos main dietary variation is with insects in the young (salamanders don't surprise me). One of them did mention rodents (a NC/VA field guide), but it was the exception. Carrion, lizards, and turtle eggs are most noted in nasicus. Apparently, nasicus can be found quite commonly in some areas when the local turtles are laying (just uphill from the pond). Do you have any info on what insect genera juvenile platyrhinos consume? That could be useful in rearing the young. Shane

Found another source online...

The Food of Some Colubrid Snakes from Fort Benning, Georgia
W. J. Hamilton, Jr.; Joseph A. Pollack
Ecology, Vol. 37, No. 3. (Jul., 1956), pp. 519-526

"Most writers credit this species as a key predator of toads and frogs, although its food is scarcely limited to these amphibians"

This paper did point out the importance of insects in the hognoses diet. Surprisingly, the insects most commonly ingested both by occurrence and by volume was Lepidoptera, butterfly and moth larvae!! Followed up by Coleoptera (beetles), then Orthoptera (grasshoppers).

After reading your original post, I wanted to emphasize that no matter how much we want to classify animals, such as specialists, nothing holds those animals within the confines of their implied evolutionary pathways. Sure, it is safe to say in a sentence or less that hognoses are ranivores, but that obviously does not tell the whole story.

If you can find Uhler et al., 1939, you'll have the paper that both the book and this paper cites as a source for the hognoses diet.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I had one when I was younger that took pill bugs (wood lice). Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Thanks for the info. I tried a search but was only able to find the simus publication from the same source. I do agree with you that you can't explain in a sentence the food preferences for a given animal. However, stating that platyrhinos is not a specialist is also an oversight. That snout and those enlarged rears didn't evolve to dig up rodents and Leptodiera(sp?). Personally, I do not have a problem feeding them wild toads and frogs. It's been a while since I've kept hogs, but when I did, I would go out on a good night and collect as many as I could for the freezer. Also, I must point out that fresh DOR Bufo, Rana, Hyla, Acris, and Pseudacris are just as palatable as the living. A bit more messy, but for a small collection and a conscientious keeper, they work nicely. I never had a problem with endoparasites. As for feeding rodents, the hair is a big no-no (I'm sure you know that). The fat content in rodents is also quite suspect for the long-term health of platyrhinos. Don't get me wrong, I would like the evidence to show that a long-term rodent diet is acceptable, but thus far I haven't seen or heard anything to the contrary. Shane

I really hope the platyrhinos aren't eating Northern cat-eyed snakes That would be a range extension. Lepidoptera(sp?) is what I meant. Damn that Latin. Also, the VA source you provided didn't mention insects, but still, 81% was amphibian prey. Their sample size, especially among juveniles, was probably not a good representation. Shane

I will concentrate my reply to this portion of your post.
"As for feeding rodents, the hair is a big no-no (I'm sure you know that). The fat content in rodents is also quite suspect for the long-term health of platyrhinos. Don't get me wrong, I would like the evidence to show that a long-term rodent diet is acceptable, but thus far I haven't seen or heard anything to the contrary."

I really do not see where hair is a problem! The feces that comes out of a Hognose really does not look that much different from any other snake. I certainly have NEVER heard of an impaction in a Hognose that was the result of rodent hair clogging up the system. What I see is a thoroughly digested mouse! If a Hognose snake can neutralize and assimilate the bufotoxins in a toad, I would like to think that they can handle hair.
I would like to see where evidence shows that a long-term rodent diet is not acceptable, in the three years I have been arguing with people on the subject on this forum, I have NEVER had anybody provide me with any proof other than pure conjecture that rodents are detrimental to hognoses. The evidence is simply not there. The vast majority of people that have made claims against an all rodent diet rely on emotion and rumor for their basis of opinion. Most of those people have claimed that after trying to switch their Hognose the rodents it suddenly died. These same people simply blamed the death on the rodent despite never having the animal tested for parasites or having a thorough necropsy (or heck, even a gross necropsy) performed.
The fat content of rodents also has never been clearly shown to be a problem (can anybody offer the fat percentages between frogs and mice anyway? since we are on the subject of providing scientific sources for our claims...). I even have a saved e-mail from a somewhat well-known Hognose expert who states that there is currently no proof of any fatty liver disease resulting from a rodent diet in hognoses.
So where is all this information coming from that states that rodent diets are detrimental? I think this may be a classic case of someone's opinion being repeated over and over on these forums for example, until it seems to become fact. I have yet to have anybody offer legitimate publications on Hognose health. Like I said, I may dive into Hognose literature this week, maybe I will find something?
It seems as though some people take offense to changing an animals natural diet. I would like to quickly point out there's nothing natural about keeping an animal in four glass walls with absolutely no selective pressures put upon it. I have a hard time excepting the fact that people with a serious interest in hognoses, or reptiles in general, who I would expect to have a strong conservation concerned for the animals they keep in their house, would have absolutely no concern for the same animals they gave rise to the reptiles they care about. Not only do I personally have a problem with taking wild animals to use as feeders to an animal with no selective pressures on it, I thoroughly despise how these frogs are treated. Freezing has not been an excepted form of euthanasia for quite some time now. The same standards are for amphibians as much as any other vertebrate. Feeding them live is not any fairer, as most people would agree it is not humane to feed a live mouse to a snake either. I would like to point out that if there ever were a source for captive bred toads that were euthanized humanely, I would be one of the first ones in line to get a couple hundred. (I certainly do appreciate the efforts of anybody who collects DOR frogs!!!) Since that probably never will happen, I refused to let a single amphibian to be sacrificed for the sake of feeding in Eastern Hognose. In the last few years I have been able to do that. All of the Eastern hognoses I take care of (currently numbering 4) eat entirely a rodent diet. The oldest one has been on rodents for over ten years now, and I can assure you that if he dies while I am still taking care of him, he will get a full necropsy and have his liver thoroughly evaluated.
Until then TxHerper, lets see what we can do about digging up some primary literature on hognoses and their diet? I am on it as we speak
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Using http://www.herplit.com/ I found the following literature that I personally found interesting. Most of the papers relate directly to subjects commonly brought up on this forum. Fortunately, I have some of these in my library already.

Diener, Richard A. 1957. A western hognose snake eats a collared animal. Herpetologica. 13 (2):122

McAlister, Wayne H. 1963. Evidence of mild toxicity in the saliva of the hognose snake. Herpetologica. 19 (2):132-137.

Platt, Dwight R. 1969. Natural history of the hognose snakes Heterodon platyrhinos and Heterodon nasicus. University of Kansas Publications Museum of Natural History. 18 (4):253-420.

Grogan, W. L., Jr. 1974. Effects of accidental envenomation from saliva of the eastern hognose snake, Heterodon playtyrhinos. Herpetologica. 30 248-249.

Burghardt, G. M. 1991. Cognitive etholohy and critical anthromorphism: a snake with two heads and hognose snakes that play dead. In Cognitive Ethology: The Minds of Other Animals. 53-90. evolution, reproduction, environment, behavior

Rossi, John and Roxanne Rossi. 1992. Notes on the natural history, husbandry, and breeding of the southern hognose snake (Heterodon simus). Vivarium. 3 (6):16-18;27. Heterodon simus

Mills, Mark S. and S. Rebecca Yeomans. 1993. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern hognose snake) diet. Herpetological Review. 24 62.

Griswold, Billy. 1993. Pug-nosed pretenders: captive care and feeding of native hognose snakes. Southwestern Herpetologists Society Newsletter. 23 (9):8.

Lazell, James. 1993. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern hognose snake). Melanism heredity. Herpetological Review. 24 (1):35.

Griswold, Bill. 1994. Hognose snake care. Wisconsin Herpetological Society. 1994 (September):9-10.

Iverson, John B. 1995. Heterodon nasicus (Western hognose snake). Reproduction. Herpetological Review. 26 (4):206.

Calhoun, Grady. 1996. Captive care of hatchling eastern hognose snakes. The Forked Tongue. 21 (11):2-3.

Cranston, Thurgess and Eunice Cranston. 1996. Notes on the natural history and captive maintenance of the Mexican hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus kennerlyi). Vivarium. 8 (2):58-60.

Plummer, Michael V. 1996. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern hognose snake). Mortality. Herpetological Review. 27 (3):146.

Plummer, Michael V. 1996. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern hognose snake). Defensive behavior. Herpetological Review. 27 (1):24.

Wilkie, Bob. 1996. Force feeding snakes: my experience with rat snakes and western hognose snakes. Rephiberary. 1996 (221):10.

Lowe, Dave. 1997. Keeping and breeding the western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus). Herptile: Journal of the International Herpetological Society. 22 (2):89-92.

Beane, Jeffrey C., Thomas J. Thorp and Dale Jackan. 1998. Heterodon simus (Southern Hognose Snake). Diet. Herpetological Review. 29 (1):44-45.

Young, Bruce A. and Julia Lalor. 1998. Sound production in the eastern hognose snake, Heterodon platyrhinos (Serpentes: Colubridae): Does it snore? Amphibia-Reptilia. 19 (4):407-418.

Montgomery, Chad and Stephen P. Mackessy. 1999. Heterodon nasicus nasicus (Plains Hognose Snake). Lack of paralysis following vertebral disjunction. Herpetological Review. 30 (4):227-228.

* Bakkegard, Kristin A. and Matthew P. Greene. 2002. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern Hognose Snake). Diet. Herpetological Review. 33 (4):314-315.

Plummer, Michael V. 2000. Ecological aspects of shedding in free-ranging hognose snakes (Heterodon platirhinos). Herpetological Natural History. 7 (1):91-94.

* Tucker, John K., Robert J. Cosgriff, William G. Dyer and John E. Petzing. 2001. Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern hognose Snake). Parasites. Herpetological Review. 32 (1):47-48.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

millipedes?
click here for the link

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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Is an account of a platyrhinos eating a millipede the best you could find in regard to hair and fat content of mice? I had a newly wild-caught that defecated large pieces of crayfish shell. The shell fragments were too large for a toad to have consumed. They are certainly known to prey on arthopods (mainly insects), but I don't recall a crusteacean ever being mentioned. Regardless, the fat content of pinkie rats and mice isn't even trivial when compared to Bufo and Rana. That's like comparing a beef cow with tuna. It's just not trivial. Also, I have personally heard of a platyrhinos that died from hair compaction (yes, a necropsy was performed). It's not just some silly rumor that is floating about. Fatty liver is a controversial subject. I personally have not heard of a hog succumbing to fatty liver (from a trusted source), but that doesn't mean it's never happened. The bottom line is that hogs are specialists. They may vary their diet slightly, but that still doesn't change the fact that their metabolism is geared for rapidly assimilating amphibians (especially platyrhinos). Also, it is highly unlikely that platyrhinos will take a rodent without scenting. Only in very rare circumstances does that occur, and even then, I'd still be very cautious of the source. That should also tell you something. Look at AC's post above, and that was a simus. While platyrhinos may survive on a diet of hairless rodents, that in no way confirms the fact that they are healthy. Look at all the fat people in America that think McDonalds is the new-age nutrition. Shane

>>"Freezing has not been an excepted form of euthanasia for quite some time now. The same standards are for amphibians as much as any other vertebrate."
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James

>>"Freezing has not been an excepted form of euthanasia for quite some time now. The same standards are for amphibians as much as any other vertebrate."
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James

WHY DOES IT KEEP DOING THAT!? SORRY!
I heard that freezing wasn't humane before (probably form you). Why is this and what would be a better way to kill a mouse for feeding? Once I had to freeze a baby Garter snake that was born "defective", at the time I thought it was the best way to kill it humanely.
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James

np
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James

James, freezing definitely isn't the most humane method for killing mice. In reptiles, some say that it isn't humane because their body tissues begin to crystallize before death occurs. Many others say that it is humane to freeze reptiles, and especially amphibians. Colchicine has his beliefs, but not everyone accepts them as true. It's really a moot point, we can't experience their senses. As for the mice, most large mouse breeders euthanize their animals in a Carbon Dioxide chamber. Several succesive jolts against a hard cornered object work well also, make sure you hit them on the edge and several times. Some people don't have the stomach for that method, but it's much more humane than the freezer for a mammal. Shane

I never knew that. I know somepeople that hit their mice in the head, but I thought that maybe it would come back to life and bite my snake!! When I think of freezing I just think of it as being cold and falling asleep. Do you think a mouse or snake would fall asleep before it dies? Thanks for the reply.
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James

They would both eventually loose consciousness (falling asleep is a gentle term) and die, but in the case of the mouse, it definitely wouldn't be an easy death. I can only imagine what a human feels while he's freezing to death, it's probably the same for most other mammals. I hold them by the tail and swiftly knock them against a corner several times(not a flat surface). I don't really like to do that, but it's the most humane method I can think of. Actually, I want to try sealing several in a small jar and letting the CO2 level build to a lethal level due to their own respiration. It would be slower than a CO2 chamber, but in theory just as painless. In that method, they would painlessly fall asleep and then die. Shane

I personally position a mouse face forward in a plastic bag and swing it headfirst into the wall. Snaps its neck on impact and makes sure nothing happens that will get the room dirty (I have had tails fall off and blood fly around). I agree with putting mice in the freezer. Some people do it for pinks and fuzzies, but for adult mice I would see this as just totally cruel. They mouse will certainly be alive for a quite a while shivering, trying to raise its body temperature before it falls into a sort of coma and dies. Definitely not the best method. A C02 chamber can be made pretty easily with some dry ice over a fine grate in a styrofoam cooler. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

can live for DAYS inside freezers, I've heard horror stories. Pinkies are a bit different because they can't regulate their body temp as well. But an adult in a freezer might die of thirst rather than cold.
Reptiles, I don't know one way or the other. I'd personally probably have a vet do it if the price weren't outrageous.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?