Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I've been part of a herp society in Canada for nearly a year now, and I have noticed that there seems to be this really deep-rooted hatred from pet stores when it comes to the herp society. They seem to feel that we are a real threat to their business, whereas I think we could be beneficial to them.

Just wondering... is this something very typical of herp societies? Because if it isn't, my guess is it would mean there's some other underlying cause for the herp society's alienation.

Thanks for your input!

Julie

>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I've been part of a herp society in Canada for nearly a year now, and I have noticed that there seems to be this really deep-rooted hatred from pet stores when it comes to the herp society. They seem to feel that we are a real threat to their business, whereas I think we could be beneficial to them.
>>
>>Just wondering... is this something very typical of herp societies? Because if it isn't, my guess is it would mean there's some other underlying cause for the herp society's alienation.
>>
>>Thanks for your input!
>>
>>Julie

Julie, I don't think that all herp societies are like this. We have a fairly good relationship with many of the local pet shops in our area. We even have a couple of pet shop owners and employees as members. Of course there will always be some shops that are not as supportive as others, but you can't please everyone.

Probably what caused your rift was merely a personality conflict between some members and some pet shop owners/employees. Often times pet shops do not always provide the best information or care for their animals. Instead of politely pointing out their errors and offering to help the pet shop may of felt like it was being "attacked" and thus began some of the problems.

Maybe you could offer the shops care sheets or other advice that could be mutually beneficial. Try it one shop at a time and see how you do.

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A.J. Sokolik
asokolik@wnyherp.org
Western New York Herpetological Society

I think the problem is actually fairly common and is rooted in a difference in the way the two look at the animals.

The herp society members are mostly people who keep herps either as a hobby or as an occupation. They may be a person who keeps a couple of kingsnakes, a large scale breeder, a biology student, a professional herpetologist, a keeper in a zoo, etc. They tend to be very passionate about the animals and their well being and have a sharp focus on good husbandry techniques and learning more about the natural history and biology of the animals. They are usually very picky about who their animals go to if they give one away or sell it, except maybe in the case of the large scale breeder. However, even the large scale breeders are usually sticklers about husbandry practices, feeding schedules, etc.

Most pet store operators, on the other hand, view the animals as simply a commodity, the sale of which will net them a profit. They are in business to make the most profit they can from each sale. Therefore, they tend to take the most economical approach to husbandry, many times barely meeting or not meeting the minimum requirements for sustaining the animal. The less they spend on taking care of the animal, the more money they make when they sell it. They tend not to care at all who the animal goes to or what happens to it after it leaves the store as long as it outlives the "health guarantee" they provide. They also tend toward charging exorbitant prices for the animals because they know that the clientele they serve, for the most part, won't know what a fair price is for a particular animal. They usually have no idea of the history of the animal, if it was captive born, wild caught or whatever and no idea of the conditions in which it was previously kept. They order from discount wholesalers from a price list, sight unseen. Many times these animals have been warehoused for some time, may have not been feeding and may be loaded with parasites and on death's door when it arrives at the pet store to be put in a display cage with minimal or no security (it's difficult to sell a hiding snake). I have actually sold to pet stores in the past, and went to the trouble of making cards to display on the cages with information about care, requirements and information about adult size, general temperament and even rating care from easy for a beginner to difficult and for experienced keepers. I also provided a care sheet for each of the animals to be provided to the new owner upon sale. I can't count the times that I received a phone call from the NEW OWNER because the pet store gave them my phone number months after the sale. When they told me the snake wasn't eating, was stuck in shed or whatever, I would ask them what the care sheet told them to do. They without fail said "what care sheet?". I actually ended up taking most of these animals and nursing them back to health and returning them to the owners along with a care sheet. It was almost always some aspect of husbandry that was the root cause of the problem. I DO NOT SELL my captive born animals to pet stores any more. Period.

And they have the nerve to wonder why Herp Society members have a problem with them?

The herp society that I belong to knows the ethical and unethical pet stores in our community, and most members make a concious effort to patronize establishments that care for their animals properly until sales are made. Certain stores will even give discounts to club members.

Unfortunately, we have individuals and members in this community that are totally out for profits, and are as two faced as they come. It's a struggle constantly in dealing with these folks, as they are members of the same society as myself, and I truly hate keeping company with such individuals. It has gotten so bad, that certain people have refused to join the club because of these particular people's involvement.

Rather than shirk away from these people, try carving out a niche in your society. Write for the newsletter, take part in educational programs, and work with individuals who care as much as you do about herps. You could also act as a liason in working with some stores that do care for their stock, and building a repetoire between their ethical protocols and prospective clientele.

Hang in there,

Neil

>>The herp society that I belong to knows the ethical and unethical pet stores in our community, and most members make a concious effort to patronize establishments that care for their animals properly until sales are made. Certain stores will even give discounts to club members.
>>
>>Unfortunately, we have individuals and members in this community that are totally out for profits, and are as two faced as they come. It's a struggle constantly in dealing with these folks, as they are members of the same society as myself, and I truly hate keeping company with such individuals. It has gotten so bad, that certain people have refused to join the club because of these particular people's involvement.
>>
>>Rather than shirk away from these people, try carving out a niche in your society. Write for the newsletter, take part in educational programs, and work with individuals who care as much as you do about herps. You could also act as a liason in working with some stores that do care for their stock, and building a repetoire between their ethical protocols and prospective clientele.
>>
>>Hang in there,
>>
>>Neil

I couldn't agree more. There will always be an unscruulous element that is out for just a quick buck. There are other shops that are responsible and take care of their animals. They even try talking to their customers and find out what is best for them.

You'll find that if you can cultivate relationships with reputable shops that it'll help your Society as much as the shop. These pet shops are great ways to attract new members who are looking for more information. And, as you mentioned many of these shops are more than happy to offer a discount to members.

Hopefully everything will work out.

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A.J. Sokolik
asokolik@wnyherp.org
Western New York Herpetological Society

The question should be "are all pet stores like this" but the answer is really the same for eithe one. As various people have pointed out, there are differences in pet stores just as I am sure there are differences in herp society. If the things a society does bothers a particular store owner then he has to look at his practices and see why. If what they are saying applies to him then he has no reason to complain. If what they are saying does not apply to him then he should make it a point to let them know that he does not operate like that.

This is to oldherper

What constitutes a "fair" price? what should be factored into the price of the animal. Does it warrent a couple of extra bucks to be able to see and hold and examine the exact animal you are looking to buy. Should I be able to charge more because I have purchased my CBB baby red eye treefrogs as 1/2 inch froglets and raised them up for 6 months so they were big enough to sell. Should the fact that I take the time to explain to my customers how to care for the animals and make sure they are informed enough to make the right descision as to what reptile is right for them go unrewarded. Are you willing to pay a little more for someone who will be there next week if you have any questions. Are you willing to pay a little more to be able to take care of all your reptile needs in one stop instead of making a dozen trips around town gathering all the stuff you need for a DIY setup.

At what point does the price of an animal become unfair. You would be surprised (or maybe you are one of them and wouldn't be) at how many people come into my store to sell their animals and USED supplies and expext a rediculous price for it. "I paid $200.00 for everything at another store 6 months ago but I know I won't get that much the clamp light with the broken switch is only 3 months old. the first one only lasted 3 months so I bought another one just like it. the 50 watt heat bulb is only 3 weeks old. He loves his hot rock, he sits on it all the time. the UVB bulb is only 6 months old but I only had it on for 12 hours a day so really its only like 3 months. The melted strip light that holds the UVB light is only 6 months old, the critter cage is just like new except it has a tiny crack in the back I paid $35.00 for the baby nile monitor but its 4 times the size now so he must be worth lots more. plus there's the water bowl, the feces encrusted hide log, a half a bag of mulch, a stupid looking neon skull and a whole bunch of medicines and reptile sprays that were hardly used. hows $150.00 sound." sounds about $125.00 to high for me.

Maybe I should be just like the internet sellers will send a cheap animal out to anyone sending the correct amount of money without asking any questions. Maybe I should charge $39.99 for my CBB red eyes just because some guy on the internet is selling their fresh off the boat parasite infested red eyes for $39.99. Oh wait a minute, I do, that's just so unfair of me. And don't get me started on corn snakes.

I am simply asking, what do you consider a fair markup on animals.

Steve Schindler

OK..to be fair, not all pet stores are the same. A few (very few) do a good job. I don’t really have a problem with a pet store operator making a profit. The ones that provide healthy animals and proper care for the animals and guidance for the customer deserve to make some money. The others deserve to go out of business. My issue isn’t even really how much they charge. If you sell a baby Leopard Gecko for $500.00, I could care less. I think anyone that would pay most pet store prices probably has no idea what they are buying anyway (or has a screw loose), but that’s their problem. I would never pay it, but then again, I’ve been keeping and breeding reptiles for over 30 years. I have serious doubts that a pet store operator can provide me with enough value-added in care information to make it worth it to me to pay $179.00 for a normal coloration Sinaloan Milk Snake (I’ve seen this). As long as the animal is honestly represented for what it is (Captive Born, feeding well, parasite-free, etc.) sell it for what you want…there’s one born every minute. The problem is when they are misrepresented. Baby Ball Pythons and baby Green Iguanas are the most common for this…the sign says “Captive born baby..good feeder $59.99”. In reality, the pet store bought 12 of them from a wholesaler in South Florida for $7.00 (at that price, it’s a pretty good bet it’s a fresh import) each, has absolutely no idea where it came from or if it has ever eaten in it’s life.

Another big problem is sick animals. Pet Stores get animals in from many different sources and I’ve never heard of one quarantining an animal for the normal 60 day period before it’s place on display for sale. In fact, I’ve never seen a pet store quarantine anything for even a week. So, you have all these animals from different places coming into close proximity with each other. If an animal is seen to be sick, what are the chances that the pet store operator is going to spend money on a vet visit? Slim to none. The most likely thing is that the price will slashed “On Sale!” and the animal will be sent out the door as quickly as possible. It will probably outlive the 48-hour “health guarantee” that most pet stores provide. Your chances of getting a diseased animal from a pet shop are very high. I know of an obviously sick White-lipped Python in a pet store right now. The pet store owner is aware the animal is sick. Nothing has been done for this animal to this point, no vets, no nothing and it is still on display and for sale. I have agreed to go today and have a look at the animal. No feces sample have been collected the animal is off feed (and has been since it was acquired). I will have to do a cloacal wash and stomach lavage in the store to try and get an idea of what’s bothering it. I can’t administer meds to the animal because I’m not a veterinarian. The only thing I can do is tell them what I find and recommend that they take the animal to a vet for treatment and advise as to whether it’s something that’s likely to spread from one cage to another. The only reason I’m doing it is for the animal and any potential buyer, but I fully expect to see the price marked down next week and everything else in the store exactly as it is now.

You talk about people trying to sell you their pet animals at high prices, used equipment, etc., and you actually inferred that I might be one of those people. Well, let me tell you from another perspective. The pet stores want me to provide my work and stock for rock bottom prices (captive born Sinaloans for $20.00 each, CBB Kenyan Sand Boas for $25.00 each, CBB Leopard Geckos for $7.00 each, CBB Hondurans for $25.00, CBB Pueblans for $20.00) AND provide lifelong care to the customer after the sale while they happily mark up the price 3 or 4 times and provide exactly nothing. As I said earlier, I won’t sell pet stores my CB animals any more (not because of price-markup but other problems stated in my previous post). I will sell them all at reptile shows, via the internet, etc. What I WILL do is buy animals from the shows for them if they place an order with me beforehand and I will provide these animals with NO guarantees. I mark the prices up 50% and they can take it or leave it. I don’t really care either way. I don’t particularly enjoy doing business that way, but I didn’t create the situation.

Like I said, I have no problem with high prices, per se, as long as value is provided in the form of clean, healthy animals and fair, honest representation. I have no doubt that you are one of the very few pet store operators that actually do a good job. However, you should be aware that you are in the minority. It’s a shame that the others are ruining your collective reputation.

I would go so far as to say some markup is needed for animals if nothing else than to "scare away" kids and others that don't have the commitment needed to take care of an animal.

Let's face it, if you are a kid (or just a Joe off the street thinking it'd be nifty to own a snake) and buy something for $75 rather than $20 you are probably going to try and spend more time and effort in keeping it alive.

The truth is that there are some good and some bad shops out there. I also think that there are some shops out there that just don't know any better. This is where I think Herp Societies still need to try and offer to help these shops in the hops that you can turn some around.

I also think finding good shops is a reason why people interested in herps should join their local Societies to find out where to get animals from shops or respectable breeders. Unfortunatley there are also a few unreputable breeders out there as well.

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A.J. Sokolik
asokolik@wnyherp.org
Western New York Herpetological Society

Yep, there's good and bad in everything. And your point is well taken.

In addition to the very real issues the other posters brought up, there could be another reason the pet stores are less than enthusiastic about supporting the local herp society and that is lost business.

Once a person joins the herp society and have begun networking with the other members of the group, they begin to get information about alternative sources for both animals and feeders. Now the person who may have been spending money at the pet shop has taken their business elsewhere and probably getting better pricing than the pet shop, with all thier overhead costs, can give them. In the cases that I'm personally familiar with, it's not that there is a bad relationship but the owner doesn't volunteer information about the herp society - niether do they lie about it if asked a direct question. From a business perspective, I can understand there actions.

Bill

I find this discusion to be very interesting. Having spent more then 11 yrs in the pet industry, I can give you case inpoint as to why many pet store don't want to get involved with herp societies.
In my home town, I use to managed the best local pet store (back in the late '80 and early '90). We gave the best care to our animals that we knew how to provide. The reptile craze was just starting to take off. We jumped on the band wagon. I went to herp shows, searched magazine listings, and tried to work with local breaders to get our supply of quality herps. I soon made contact with a guy who went to the Ohio swap every time. There he introduced me to guys like Ed Luchevic, Don Hamper, Mark Bell, and Amy Zilch (forgive me if I didn't spell names right). We used all of these now well respected herpers for sources as well as more.
When we would get a new animal in we would first ask the breeder or supplier how to care for it. Then I would do my own info search. We carried the AVS books and all of magazines of the times. So I became freinds with a few club members. I attended a few club events.
From that I decided that the club was a important resource of knowledge and possible customers. I asked for fliers and news leters to help support what I truely felt was a good organization. I then started recommending new reptile buyers join the club. My thought was what was good for them would be good for us.
Boy was I wrong! I was told by one of my customers to not send anymore customers to them because the bashed all pet store including mine, which by the way I gave them 80% or better of the new members that year. Here I was helping them increase their membership and they were doing what every they could to put me and my fellow pet-shoppers out of buisness. These tactics included call the law when something wasn't done correctly, and confiscating animals from the new owners that they felt should be sold.
The other thing that realy blew my mind was that they said in one of thier meetings that there was no reason to every buy anything from a pet store. This was beacuse the president of the club could get anything you want.
I hope you see what I am getting at. It is a mater of ethics or lack there of!
Now I don't believe every club is like this one was back then. It is also my understanding that it has changed as well. I have a real problem with a organized group of people stating that pet stores are only in it for the money, when it was plain to see that that was some of thier motivation as well.
I also don't understand why they would call "Johny Law" when they think something isn't correct. All they have accomplished is to set a presideince for futer laws against all of us herpers.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Don't try to hurt the pet store. Try to make it better. I don't know of any smart buisnessman who wouldn't love help to make his buisness beter. Provided that it is done in the right way. We must remember these buisness owners have put thier livelyhood into this buiness. Offer to hold a feild trip to his store at one of the meetings, or better yet ask if you can hold the intire meeting in the store. Your group could even offer to do training of his employees. Hold events in his parking lot (like turtle and frog races). These events always draw a crowd and would work to help both groups.
Remember if you truely believe that pet stores are only there to make money, then use that to your clubs advantage. After all the more members your club has the more power it has to make changes for the better. If I still managed my store and you came to me with a plan to get 500 herp and herp supply buying customers into my store for 1-2 hours a month, you would have my full support!!!
There are bad apples on both sides, but lets not let them spoil the entire batch for everyone!
Knowledge is power!!!!!!!

I find for the most part it's the opposite. Herpers don't like the local pet stores. I work in a pet store and breed herps. There are pet stores that I will shop at and won't shop at. Ones that I like and others that I will be very happy to see them closed down (due to lack of care). Where I work we have to give care sheets out with every sale. We also are not allowed to sell to minors, we are only allowed to buy captive bred and make sure the person knows what they are getting into, what they need and how long the animal will live. Of course the people I work for are only doing this to make money but honestly, as long as the animals are well taken care of, i don't care what there intentions are. Selling animals can be hard especially when you don't know who's buying them. I don't particullarily like working in a pet store but at least I can try to make a difference until my breeding gets me out of employee work

Yes, however there are pet stores who don't like herpers because we are 'know it alls' and when they don't care how badly there animals are taken care of they don't want you telling them.

Alecia

here is the way i see it having only been in to herps for 12 years now and my mom for 17 or so we now own and run for the last 5 years a pet store she worked at for 6 years before we bought it. when we first got into the store everyone from the herp society was great really nice help us find other local breeders for animals all was good until it got bigger and the no longer need us they traded animals amongst them selves and found a member to breed all the mice and rats found wholesalers to sell directly to them and then the stores became compation. that was the begining of the we are god attitude. which is a bummer because where did they get their first reptile more than likely our store along with over 75% of thier members. so it's sad to say such a great thing has just become a giant ego trip and their way is the only right way. i hope someday the herp society's will be fun and friendly again insted of self rightous arogant heaven for know it alls...

They aren't supposed to be "swap meets", although herp societies sometimes sponsor annual shows. The intent of herp societies is to further the study of reptiles and amphibians by sharing information and conducting studies, reasearch, etc. and publishing the findings for all areas of herpetology including husbandry, breeding, herp medicine, etc. plus it gives beginners a place to learn and all herpers a place to mingle with their own.

The problems (if there are any) are with (some of) the members...not the society. However, the pet stores that have the problems need to understand that the problems were not created by the herp societies, but by problems that some of the members have encountered at the stores and frustrations in trying to get them corrected.

Pet Stores distain education. They tend to be
highly negligent in the care of their animals. Public education
would bring this to light. Therefore you are bad for business.
A good herp society would discuss products like iguana sombreros
and vitamin spray. When people stop buying these worthless
products herp societies become bad for business.

That is if youhave a good herp society. Don't get me started
on the one in RI. The only one I have much experience with.

Brian

Hi everyone,

Wow, I never thought this would become such a popular discussion! I felt I was taking a chance posting here since there didn't seem to be much "action."

I forwarded the link to this forum to our society's president so he can read all your valuable input.

Thank you so much!

Julie