Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to hear some opinions from people that keep crocs. I keep crocs. I intend to keep crocs till I die. I certainly do not want to see the keeping banned or regulated to the point it becomes near impossible. I am however, concerned with the ease they can be purchased. For two hundred dollars I can have a nile crocodile shipped to my door overnight. No more than a few taps on the keyboard. I am not familiar with any statistics concerning the volume sold or purchased. It seams to be more than there are sincere enthusiasts. How many juvenile alligators and niles are sold as pets every year? Where is this trade going to be five years from now? What happens when the media gets a hold of the stories about the guys with twenty, thirty stitches? I can see the headlines now. Venomous snake keepers face the same problem.If you can purchase a nile crocodile as easily and affordably as a leapord gecko. . . .
I like the growing interest in these animals. It has made alot of imformation avaliable to humble enthusiasts like myself. Where does it go from here? What about this fourteen year old kid asking about the keeping of caiman? I'm glad the kid has the sense to ask questions. With the support of his parents who is to judge whether or not he can be succesful? I kept alot of animals at fourteen that I "shouldn't" have kept. I am scared of the average young men or women buying gators and niles that have no hope of being succesful. Where does this leave the animals? Where does this leave my boys when they are mature enough to make these decisions, but they are banned. Maybe we should police ourselves. How does the merchant feel when he sells the croc to the smooth talking voice on the other end of the phone? Is he or she sincerely interested in the animals that he/she sells? I thank GOD that I have been fortunate enough to have the privelage of experiencing the day to day interaction with these animals. I am thankful I had someone to purchase mine from. I do not know exactly where I stand yet, but I am concerned. What do you think?

well! thanks for the concern about the 14 year old kid (which is me) i now how you fell about the gators bc it is that easy to go on a web site and buy an aminal and they dont as you if you are ready to take care of the animal. that is y i asked people about id it is a good idea if i should get a dwarf camin and i decided that i am not ready to buy this animal so that i can go to college and leave this animal with my parents ( even if my mom wants it almost as much as me but it is not her responsiblty to tak care of it).

But i do now how you fell about the safty of tha animals

~ tom ~

In my opinion it should be regulated more but not so much as to keep a knowledgable and capable person from having one. For example, it would be much more difficult for one of these awesome creatures to fall into the wrong hands if animal control or some agency of that nature had to qualify you first, meaning possibly come to your house inspect your animal housing and maybe ask a few questions about the animal inquired about, just to make sure that you are capable of housing, handling and controlling an adult animal. also be atleast 18 yrs of age, or in the 14yr olds case, parents would have to be qualified and responsible for the animal in case of college etc. also the wholesalers/breeders should be required to obtain a copy of the qualification document before shipping any animals with potential to be dangerous, such as crocodilians. if they had to come to your house and inspect, this would prevent alot of mistreated animals, around here there are alot of large snakes and crocodilians being confiscated in drug raids etc. it makes ne sick to see these animals mistreated and not cared for properly. sorry for such a long post

I agree,

It really should be regulated. In fact, I think pet care centers should be setup for all animals. You take a course and your licensed to keep that animal. Just like your driving license or motorcycle license.

Many people learn to ride motorcycles before they even have their license (Dirt bikes). But they still go through the course for insurance and extra safety reasons.
It may be a walkthrough for some herpers... but I think people would sacrifice $100 in the interest of actually being able to keep them at all and even grow the industry responsibly.

how would such a system be enforced and managed? I can tell you that there is nobody in any enforcement catagory in my state (MN) that is qualified to administer inspections and/or testing of qualifications for croc keeping. I'm very sure that the state (or county or city, whatever) would not be inclined to impliment such a system for those who would want to keep "dangerous" animals. It's much easier to just say no.

This is not to say that I'm not sick and tired of all the rescues and sick/deformed animals out there.

Bill

>>I'm very sure that the state (or county or city, whatever) would not be inclined to impliment such a system for those who would want to keep "dangerous" animals. It's much easier to just say no.

From what I understand, that is exactly what happened in Texas when they went to a county by county regulatory system for "exotics." Most county governments didn't have the resources or expertise to perform the required inspections and opted to outlaw exotic animals altogether. A number of rescue centers/shelters that had supported the new regulations found themselves faced with the choice of moving or going out of "business."

A system which *might* work and would address many concerns would be to copy the rules falconers use. There is an apprenticeship period and any new or prospective owner has to go through a supervised learning period. The sponsor will only approve the apprentice after he has demonstrated the appropriate level of knowledge and skill need to keep the animal.

For the last few years, I've been requiring prospective crocodilian owners to show me a facility built for an adult specimen before I'll sell them one of any size. My reasoning is that if they are committed enough to spend the time and money, they can prove it by doing it now, not promising to do it some time in the future. (Lots of people used to promise me things in the past that often didn't happen). This policy has cut into sales a bit (I'm averaging 0.5 Dwarf caimans/year) , but I sleep better at night.

This is my point exactly,

If you can demonstrate self regulation then the municipalities wouldn't care. Nobody inspects for dog licenses so technically it's not necessary to be enforced by the municipality. It would be enforced by the sellers. You setup a board that are sat on by experienced herpers (generally some store keepers are quite knowledgeable - not the big box store type)

This board meets maybe semi anually and determines the qualifications for keeping one. You can either do it apprenticeship style or course style. I would prefer apprentice but that requires much more resources than some knowledgeable herper to come teach once a month (curriculum set by board).

This can be expanded to all store employees dealing with this type of animal requiring the certification - this provides bread and butter for the board to administer this. I would go into more detail but my post is long enough

Mr. F

a pet store owner who actually cares about the welfare of the animals! Terrific

By the way, Brian - how are those eggs doing this year?

Also, I was at your web site the other day, I thought I might want to purchase one of those gator t-shirts of yours but I doesn't appear that it's been updated in awhile. Do you have a different one?

Bill

>>By the way, Brian - how are those eggs doing this year?

I hatched ten this time around. Probably would have been more if I had brought them all indoors. 5/7 artificially incubated ones hatched, as opposed to 5/15 left in the nest. Oddly enough, I think they were too cool outside, as I put shade lattice over the nest area and sprayed the nest down daily when it was in the high 90s and 100s. They actually took longer to hatch than the indoor eggs at 87-88 degrees.

>>Also, I was at your web site the other day, I thought I might want to purchase one of those gator t-shirts of yours but I doesn't appear that it's been updated in awhile. Do you have a different one?

mea culpa

The web site is in dire need of attention. (I work on it when I "don't have anything else to do", which is not too often). I'll send you a private e-mail.

"I certainly do not want to see the keeping banned or regulated to the point it becomes near impossible."

sadly this has happened in my state(NJ). i've tried getting a permit for a caiman or any type of crocodilian. My parent has called about it as well. Crocodilians can't even be kept here with a permit. i hate the animal laws here. i have been researching crocs for years and i'm not even able to get one, legally. i'm still glade i've learned all about them but i'd love to be able to own one, i guess maybe in the future in another state.

Well I don't know about the rest of the country, but, here in Michigan they need more regulations. This has been a busy year for us. We just acquired our 3rd C. Niloticus and are now sitting at 18 animals (3-C. Nil, 2-C. Croc, and 13-A. Miss). All of the animals we have were bought as hatchlings and when they got over 2 feet, well you know how it goes. We just don't have enough regulations to keep the swarm of animals coming in taken care of.

I would like to see an apprecticeship program installed here. I am glad to see that at least one dealer is aware and takes the steps needed to be responsible. The problem lies in the fact that far to many dealers/petshop owners are more concerned with the pocket book than the best interest of the animals or their customers. I know one in particular that sells A. Miss hatchlings at $100. When the buyer no longer wants it, the shop owner takes it back (for free of course, because as he puts it "It's not really worth anything now" I have never seen this guy buy an animal back and will tell you that if you don't want it he'll TAKE it or you can give it to animal control or have it put down) and then puts it up for sale for $150-200.

This where it has to be worked on. If you want an exotic you should have some knowledge of what you are buying and if it is that important to you, you will invest the time.

Bottom line: I study everything I can about crocodilians to keep myself abreast of any possible thing that can happen. If you REALLY feel it in your heart that herping is for you, then you shouldn't have a problem with going through the proper proceedures to be licensed and legally allowed to keep them.

my 2 cents (well with inflation $0.50)
Michigan Crocodilian Rescue