Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Interesting paper. Check page 126.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/hcpb/info/herp_ssc.pdf

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2 Kings 6:15-17

Thanks again for all the info you provided, man that things like a book.

Hey tell me if this is a good idea, if I can't get any permits for the CHL's, then this spring and summer i will go out in the field and see if I can study them,(habitat,feeding habits, etc...) Hopefully my homework wont be to much of a problem.

That is the best idea. Getting permits to keep P. coronatum is going to be very difficult and if you need help in setting up a field study, let me know. I am already setting up fire recovery monitoring sites at several localities.

Lester G. Milroy III

Yeah, even if I can't keep a horned lizard I still enjoy seeing them, and would like to make it as a profession. And I am probably going to get a roundtail horned lizard from a local pet store.

I wouldn't start out with a roundtailed(modestum)HL, out of the 9 species I have kept they are the most difficult. They are prone to stress and because of their small size they lose weight more rapidly than others. You should start out with a desert HL (platyrhinos).

Thanks Jeff. You have made an excellent recommendation.

Lester G. Milroy III

Lester,
Is there somewhere we can read about your study criteria?
Are you doing any that involve breeding P. Coronatum?

Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!
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2 Kings 6:15-17

Coronatum Frontale : small, pointed rugose scales on the forehead (frontals);

Coronatum Blainvillii: large, convex, smooth scales on the forehead (frontals);
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2 Kings 6:15-17

I have had the pleasure of seeing both of these subspecies, and have noticed that P. c. blainvilli has a rusty color added to its camoflauge, while P.c. frontale has a more grey coloration, with no rusty coloration at all.

Hello Cable.
What do you want to know about my study criteria? My studies cover hormone cycles, reproduction, home range and habitat utilization, growth rates, dispersal, dietary requirements and prey preference, DNA analysis, population peak and decline studies, historic range analysis and identification, in situ and ex situ population studies, population density analysis, nesting site preference studies, courtship and mating behaviors, metabolic rates, and more.

My studies are long term studies. These are the kinds of studies that have never been done. My work has been cited in Smithsonian, Keeper Magazine, and other publications. My reports to California Fish and Game and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are the only publications so far. Once my analysis and studes have peaked, the publication of my results will be in the Journal of Conservation Biology and through the University of California. There may be two or three other journals that I will submit for review and publication also.

I have done a lot of work with breeding P. coronatum (and several other species for comparitive analysis). I have worked with temperature/humidity variables in captive studies, and monitored several nests of wild populations from laying to hatching. I have studied survivability, and reproductive rates, and age of reproductive maturity.

I will keep you posted on publication.

Lester G. Milroy III

Hi Lester,
I look forward to reading your studies when they get published, many seem very interesting. I am especially interested in your diet requirement study. What it is HLs require in ants? Is it venom or the acids that possibly equal out the digestive tract? I found a post on a German website with you speaking on the matter. When I raised hatchling HLs to adults on a diet strictly of ants they required large numbers of ants daily and growth rate was slower than when I included additional prey items. When raising the baby taurus I was skeptical to offer anything but ants because of the ANTS ONLY postings on this forum, I wanted them to be as healthy as possible. When speaking to two other specialists ,in Germany and Switzerland, their sibling taurus were growing at an alarming much much faster rate. The difference was the fact that they offer as many crickets as the taurus would eat as well as a few mealworms. When I started offering the small crickets (sometimes dusted with vitamins and minerals) as well as some freshly shed small mealworms they just took off and started to grow rapidly as well. But you can't feed a diet strictly of crickets because I have noticed excess water in the scats as well as a strange color and odor. I have noticed certain species of HLs can't cope with pogos (p. orbiculare as an example) and some can't cope with the non stinging but chemically active m.pergandi(p. modestum and p. taurus as an example) Diet requirements are more complex than many people think and might very well be species specific. Here is the post for anyone interested.
" Hello Franky.
Good to hear from you. I enjoy hearing from people around the world. The studies of ants not having acid is a miscommunication in information. The study notes the absence of formic acid, as noted that ant species of the genus Formica are the only ants that contain formic acid. Ant venom is the content item that horned lizards detoxify. The horned lizards have a special blood factor that detoxifies this venom, which is very powerful and "deadly." If a human were injected with the extracted venom from 100 ants of the genus Pogonomyrmex, which is a major ant genus horned lizards consume, it would kill the average human. The venom is broken down into a complex carbohydrate and water. These items are essential to horned lizards. It aids in controlling internal bacteria that would otherwise be toxic if the pH is changed to the basic instead of the acid balance. I have not worked with Phrynosoma asio as of yet, but if the horned lizards are growing and gaining weight the ants in Germany are probably just fine. Keep me posted on their progress. What genus/species of ants are you feeding the HLs? This is important information in noting.
Lester G. Milroy III, President
Horned Lizard Conservation Society of Southern California
Conservation Biologist"

Hi Lester,
Sorry for the delay. I've been really busy with home projects.
I guess what I am most interested in is your formal study criteria and the presentation of criteria to get the permits necessary to carry them out. I am interested in possibly doing some study's in the wild with as little disturbance to the populations as possible. Since I am already spending so much time there and have such a keen interest I thought it might be beneficial to actually perform some kind of study that could contribute to the knowledge base for CHL's. Heck, you've even got me looking at college home study courses in biology.
I am most interested in your studys relating to home range and population densities. I figure these would be the most basic and a good place to start. I am interested long term in dietary requirements, growth rates and also reproduction.

Would you be willing to share more details off-line?

I am looking forward to your publications and would also enjoy your website I am sure. ...How is it coming along?
Cheers!
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2 Kings 6:15-17

Their have been many studies done on p. coronatum. This one should be of interest to anyone who questions variety in a HLs diet. HLs fed a diet of crickets and mealworms grew faster than natural populations of HLs.
Natural undisturbed Rate = .18
Natural Arthropods and no ants = .07
Argentine ants = .05
Crickets = .24

A second study proving ants are not necessary and that HLs grow faster on a diet of crickets. Please read the article for anyone who doubts the proof.

Bottom-up Effects of Ant Invasion

Nice paper Jeff. I like the idea of tinting the tanks for the study. Pretty cool idea.

I have to say though, that I don't see this as conclusive evidence that HL's can do just as well or better on a diet of crickets and/or meal worms. The term of the study was too short IMHO. To get some really good data you would probably want to track the health and weight/length measurements through the life or at least 5 to 7 years into the life of the HL's being monitored, and you might have to carry that study through a generation or two to get really great results. As it sits it seems to just show that baby HL's grow well with crickets in regards to non-ant diets.

It would be interesting to read more studies though.
Thanks again for the link.
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2 Kings 6:15-17

Well, I understand what your saying Jeff, and well I think I am only going to be able to get one of these guys, and I don't want to violate any laws by taking a CHL, I will try my best at keeping one heathy if I get one. Thanks for you concern.

I just hope I can raise any horned lizard as healthy and good condition as your P. taurus.

Hey Geckoboy,
Are the CHL's you are talking about right there off the 23 near the berry farm on that hillside? Just curious.
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2 Kings 6:15-17

Actually they are in a community that called Dos Vientos, if you know where that is. I really am in Newbury Park. They live really close to me.