Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Robin,

First Id like to tell you, I think you guys at pro-exotics do a great job by trying to not only sell animals but trying to inform people about them, and how to care for them.

I have a few questions about the substrate topic and using soil:

1- I have a baby Saharan thats about 10 grams, I thought using a substrate like sand or birdseed for such a youngster was a bad idea because of ingestion, do you think soil can be used for him and not pose a risk or should I wait till he grows?? (hes on newspaper)

2- you said "soil allows for breakdown of fecal material" can you tell me what exactly you mean by breakdown and if soil breaks it down should poop still be scooped out or is this unnecesary??

3- You also said a good soil "has to dig well, burrow well, hold moisture well, and the animals have to recognize it as usable, and actually put it to use"
How can you tell if the soil has each of these properties?? I could set the soil up in an empty tankbut how can I tell this before I put my uro on it, so that if it doesnt work I dont have to make him go through a change again??

Thanks Allot
Sorry for all the questions
Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

I'm making up a batch of soil right now so I'd like to add a question

4. The topsoil I bought is all natural and is a mixture of Bark compost, canadian sphagnum peat moss, and perlite. Do you know if any of these could be harmful to a uro? I'm more concerned about the perlite, because I don't know what it is . The other two ingrediets in the mix, the washed playsand and vermiculite, were recommend by you so I assume they are basically safe.

Thanks.

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1 juvenile Mali named Aiden

I looked up some info on perlite, it seems harmless, so I put the mixture in my uro's tank today. So far its just been investigating its new surroundings, licking everything (so far hasn't eaten any of the soil mixture, which I'm glad) and basking. As of yet it hasn't realised that it can now burrow, I'll reply when it finally decides to.

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1 juvenile Mali named Aiden

Maybe you find parts of the answer in my two posts on this topic:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=253289,253838
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=253289,259052

With respect to the natural breakdown of feces, I do have very good experiences with Rainforest tanks inoculated with forest soil.
In the dry Uro climate its not easy to find organisms which help in breakdown of the feces. Bacteria, mites and the like don´t multiplöy enough to help much. To my expereince the presence of metamorphed Zophobas, which turn into large black beetles which are normally not eaten by herps helps a lot. Also Alphiotobius diaperinus normally thrives in Uro cages and the larvae help to remove feces.
But since Uro Poop is relatively large, it still is necessary to remove parts of it manually, which especially applies for the urate section.

Hope that helps

Ingo

np
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

to keep things in perpective- remember that this is all an adventure, and none of my "answers" are necessarily definitive for each and every situation or setup. what has been fine tuned for a setup at PE may need a bit of different fine tuning for your own setup. always keep that in mind when going through this process : )

1. we got our Ornate Uro babies as hatchlings, about 5 grams each, in mid August. as of today, three and a half months later, most are over 120 grams. they have been in the 4 ft soil setup, 5 to a group (we have 4 groups) the whole time.

2.the soil absorbs the fecal material, at least the moisture from it, but certainly spot clean it as you can. unlike paper, or a seed substrate, fecal matter that is left in the cage will not start to rot or mold, or grow other strange surprises : )

3.how do you know if your substrate or mix digs well? DIG IT! make some tunnels with your hands, your fingers, whatever. just move it around and get a feel for how well it works. let it dry out on top, to see if it gains a hard crust. some mixes or products will do that, and make it very hard for an animal to break through it and dig it.

how do you know if your Uro will use it, so you don't have to start over and try something new? that is the adventure : ) you just have to try it. you may have a soil that you think is just great, but the animal doesn't like at all, and won't dig in. it is not your choice (in the end), but rather the Uros, so you have to try, and perhaps try again. check out some recent monitor forum discussions on substrates (sandy loam) for more ideas and insight (clay contents- too much clay is a bad thing).

4. perlite is what we use for our egg laying medium. it is harmless, but it is basically a small sharp rock, so i don't WANT it in my mix...

there are lots of topsoil and potting soils available. try and get the cleanest "dirt" that you can, with the least amount of additives, especially fertilizers. having a soil that has bark, peat moss, and perlite in it will certainly affect how the other pieces fit (sand and vermeculite) so keep that in mind.

have fun digging!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

50% potting soil, 25 sand, 25 vermiculite.... Anyone else tried it like that?
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2.0 Iguanas, 2.4 Beardies, 0.2.1 Saharan/Nigerian Uromastyx, 0.0.2 Leos, 0.0.1 African Fat Tail, 1.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa, 0.0.1 Fla Garter Snake, 0.1 eastern garter, 0.0.1 Banded California King Snake (M.I.A.), 0.0.1 Corn Snake, 0.0.3 Fire Belly Toads, 1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle, 0.0.1 African Sideneck, 2 Horses (soon to be three {Baby next May!!!}), 4 cats, 1 dog, and I'm done for now.....

Thats the exact mix I'm trying at the moment. He dug a little, took him a while before he even tried, and then it wasn't very substantial. He's sleeping in his hide right now, I'm hoping tomorrow he'll really start his burrowing. The only thing I'm concerned with is the humidity has gone up 20-30% to about 55% humidity in the cage, I'm hoping that won't be a problem.
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1 juvenile Mali named Aiden

when i screw up the Gila's burrows, they can take 2-3 weeks before making a new one, as if they are waiting for me to make it for them. monitors take less than a day, typically.

the Uros have been somewhere in between there : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Just a heads up on a possible problem you might encounter.

My tank's top is basically uncovered, because of the way I had it when there was sand in the tank, it just has a grill over it and this is what the lights are put on. When making the soil mixture I probably used about one and a half liters maybe 2 liters. The soil passed the finger test with no problem and was very good. Unfortunately only the next morning, it failed horribly. So on the far end of the tank I poured probably another liter of water, unfortunately even that didn't raise the water table in the tank all that high, theres probably a good 2cm of dry soil convering the entire tank now. Tomorrow before he gets up I'm going to try and put even more water in, and see what happens.

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1 juvenile Mali named Aiden

A couple more questions

you say that the soil will absorb the moisture from the feces, doesnt this make soil have more bacteria that other substrates?

Just out of curiosity, why dont you guys just put that soil you got in bags a sell them online, Id like to know what has kept you from doing this, if you dont mind me asking.

Thanks Allot
Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

a good soil won't get dirty or contaminated...

as for shipping dirt, first of all, they soil we use is not "perfect", i would still like to imnrove upon it. secondly, the shipping charge for even 50 lbs of dirt is pretty significant, and that is not even enough for a small cage. it is simply impractical to ship out 200 lbs of dirt to someone : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles