Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am very interested in using a 90 gallon aquarium and transforming it into one huge display. But I had several questions. I'm planning on having a section where there is a large amount of water for a couple pairs of tropical fishes.
Also included in the tank will be some day geckos and one species of dart frog. Haven't decided on what I actually wanted to put in there. I'm thinking of getting some pumilios as soon as I could find them and adding them into the tank, or maybe some imitators. If they aren't found I think I might use some vitattus as starters. But in this tank the thing I'm worried about is the water feature. I'll be having 2 waterfalls that combines to make a huge stream. But I was worried that the dart frogs may drown, as I recently heard that they would sink like a stone. So I was wondering if there was anything I could do to either prevent them from going in, or help them get out of the water. I was thinking about putting a glass baricade but then isolating it, would become a difficult task and will take some natural beauty out of the design.
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-_^

I wouldn't say they "sink like a stone" as you've heard, but they do have a very difficult time swimming in open water. I think a large water feature would be fine, as long as there are a number of "docking points" (such as branches, stones, etc)along the water's edge in case one does happen to fall in. It might also be beneficial if you had a gradual decent to the water body, such as a pea gravel beach.
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Randy

i agree with randy. if you have branches that touch the water in various places it would create areas for the frogs to get out of the water. you could also use cypress knees, and they would look real cool in a large tank (black jungle has them). i have also found that simple water plants will greatly aid the frogs when they fall in the water. duck weed is able to support a lot darts (except maybe the large tincs and frogs of similar sizes) as well as water hyacinth or lily pads. also you could grow Anubias, Anthuriums, Philodenrons, Pothos, and I am sure there are more plants that would do fine with their roots totally submerged in the water. their leaves would create more things for the frogs to climb out of the water onto. just some ideas.

i was just thinking... about the frogs you said you might use.. in that tank i don't know if you'd ever see them much. i mean a little thumbnail frog in a hug 90.
i don't know maybe i'm wrong, but i would suggest azureus or luecs
good luck

First of all, let me say I have used my 90 gallon before for both day geckos and dart frogs. It is not that big of a tank when you figure in the large water feature. I would probably opt for a much larger tank for a project of that magnitude. Myself and Mark Pepper did one at his house last year (also the first time we use the expanding background), and used D. azureus and D. ventrimaculatus. The water feature had some neon tetras and perhaps some corey catfish. In any event, this tank went off without a hitch for many months until it was taken down to make more room in his (already packed and large) frog room. To comment on the anole eating the D. imitator, that lizard looked pretty skinny to me anyway, so the person mixing was to blame as well. I have seen a friend (over a decade ago) have a female anole attack a young E. tricolor and the frog did eventually die from the attack. I would not mix anoles, however Phelsuma should not be a problem. There are many cases of mixing Phelsuma and Dendrobatids. I have heard of P. ornata, P. cepediana, P. klemmeri, P. quadriocellata, P. guimbeaui, and P. laticauda. My preference would be with P. klemmeri for sure. I feed mine a good deal of fruit flies and babyfood. The babyfood will also help your frogs as the flies will congregate there making food location easier for them. I had a pair of D. imitator in that 90 gallon for quite some time (though they did grow exponentially in time) with no problems. I have used many larger (50 gallon and more) for nearly all my Quinquevittatus group frogs back in the day, and had my best breeding successes in larger tanks. Just some notes on the topic.

that is means it is possible
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

I disagree.

"A couple months" is not a long time. Though, Yeager and Pepper are experts who were in this hobby for years, and certainly know what their doing. DKim is still beginning, and shouldnt be told its alright to mix them with thumbnails, unless she has a bit more experience imo.

Again, i would not put any species of thumbnails in with the geckos. You should only go with the 'big' types (Azureus, tincs, etc). I dont know why you would risk it anyway, because phelsuma can and will eat 3/4 - 1" crickets easily regardless of how hungry they are. Plus both are arboreal, and the day geckos are quick as hell.

I do agree though, that klemerri is your best option, as they grow smaller that others, and can take higher humidity better.

M.N

Hey MN
If you read some of the post before you, I realized that thumbnails might be too small for these combination.So I decided to use terriblis "geld" or "orange" =D. Also am going to find what combination of dart frogs will be allowed without any risk with crossbreeding or dangering themselves.

Also, my username be DKiM128, but I'm a male, Sorry to disappoint many =D, but Kim is my last name =D.

Daniel
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-_^

Oh, sorry about that then.

Glad you didnt mix the thumbnails, especially pumilio.

M.N

Don't worry about it =D. There nothing to be sorry about. I guess I will get some Pumilio in the future but use my smaller tanks for them, or just set up a large tank just for the pumilios. I think pumilios are great, but mixing them with other might be a bad idea for me because of their size differences. I'm hoping to pick something up at the IAD =D.
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-_^

They can oput eat and push around any dart frog they feel like so they would not be good species for anything but a species tank.
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

What type of day geckos?

DO NOT put any type of thumbnail species in the geckos, Definately an easy prey for them. Mine take on 3/4" - 1" crickets easily.

M.N

There are some day geckos that will do fine with the dart frogs. The dart frogs won't look like a tasty meal to them cause they will be around the same size. I was thinking about going bigger too, if I can't find the thumbnail, maybe a collection of the "terriblis" They look pretty neat, and I'm looking for the "orange" and "geld" ones. As for the plants, I'm planning on have a lot lot lot of plants in the "Pond" section. There will be duckweed, water lilies, water lettuce, water hayacint, java moss, etc Just want it to be very natural looking. As for the branches, I was hoping to have the branches close to the shore only and have the viewable part be clear of branches. As for the gradual inclination, I'm not sure if they would be possible for what I'm designing, I'm using the natural "rock" looking background and its basically cliff downward, but I would be adding plenty of driftwood. If the 90 gallon I'm using is not "big" enough to do the gradual inclination, I might be able to use my 135 gallon. But I was hoping to save that for the chondros I'm going to get, but I'm buidling a custom cage for them, so I'm not sure yet. I like the look of more height on my tank instead of width. But using the regular aquariums aren't allowing me to do that.
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-_^

Once again, what species of 'day gecko'. I know some would be compatible (Go for the terribillis, Azureus, Tincs, Leucs etc) but certainly not thumbnails (imitator, vents etc). I doubt the frogs reach the same size as the geckos.

Also, ive heard of bad experiences with the duck weed aswell.

M.N

Hi: wondering what you heard as far as bad experiences with duckweed. I was just thinking about using it. Thanks. Maggie

about using water lettuce and hayacints.... from experience the hayacints don't do well, but if you can get them to do well they will end up getting really big and may get too big for a 90. if you went with the 135 they'd look great. i haven't had much experience with water lettuce but they are a light color plant that may add a nice contrast with all the darker plants out there.

if you could get the hayacints to work i think they'd look more 'natural' though.

sorry for rambling

good luck with the plants

Why not some species of tree frog or toads that would be bigger and require less humidty and then would be a better canidate for mixing than darts. Please don't use pumilio as that is a no brainer waste of time and is just plain stupid.
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

I've seen many vivarium. And I know for a fact that it is not stupid to use thumbnail in a larger tank. I asked several people already on this topic, and they said thumbnails will do fine. Just as long as everything is balance and all the little problems are fixed. The major problem was having the eco-system balanced. I wanted to add some vibrant colors into the tank. Thumbnails will do fine in a tank that size. There is no doubt that I have in mind, that the thumbnails will do fine in the tanks. The main problem was the water features. Right now, I don't perfer any of the other frogs such as tree frogs, had them before, and I perfer dart frogs the best. Just I was hoping to make a combination of some type. I have the fishes all planned out, with snails, ghost shrimps, and even african dwarf frogs. Just was worried about the placement of the pond dep. I have plenty of smaller tanks for darts but I just wanted to see they design of the greater designs, if I can't figure out how to have my darts from falling into the water, there will be redesigning to have the water elevated so its higher than the other area and have several escape routes for them. Just my opinion

Daniel
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-_^

Greenstar...you can be a jerk sometimes. Plain and simple. You were a jerk a week ago when you barked at someone for wanting to mix thumbnails with tree frogs......this is not "Greenstar's Almighty Soap Box Forum"...it is a place for people to post ideas for feedback...but not rude, condescending, remarks like yours. You should try a little tact.
And, if I have caught on to your style at all, you will respond by blaming me for attacking you and wanting an apology....you won't get one from me.

Sorry for contributing to turning this forum into something it was not intended for.

Matt
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Matt

I just said that because I know of a picture and several stories of people online that would disregard such mixing. Also I got a picture somewhere of an anole eating an imitator, both are similar to the two animals you are thinking of mixing so yes after seiing the photographic evidence and KNOWING that the pumilio can and probably will eaten by the Day Geckos. Dkim please think before your rick some rare frogs.
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

That is an imitator being eaten by an anole
What you are risking

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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

I think you missed the point of what Matt was trying to say.

You can say anything you want on this board, but its the way in which you say it that is offensive. I will quote you:

"Please don't use pumilio as that is a no brainer waste of time and is just plain stupid."

That's kind of rude. A better way to say this in a nice way is "I wouldn't use pumilio if I were you, you might be wasting your time".

See what I mean? A little tact goes a long way, and we can all get along

Kevin H.

Dkim, a 90 is a really big project. One can spend quite a bit of money/time on a project like that and not have it come out to expectations, resulting in disappointment to you, and death to frogs. PLEASE do your homework, and gain experience with smaller tanks first. Mixing species is a bad idea. I wont beat this dead horse any longer (especially since some people on this forum have gotten really nasty/defensive at the mere suggestion that this is a terrible idea), but it IS A BAD IDEA. I know that people will do it, and that frog and other animal deaths will result, but I just wanted to go on the record as stating that. Some people have kept a few day geckos with darts. Those who have successfully done this usually have quite a bit of experience with both species.
A large stream can be complicated. Too much flow and frogs will be washed into the pond over and over again. Stress results. Some people have even made the point that darts like a drier land area, and that water features arent really necessary. I will echo greenstar on this. Consider other species.
And, just a note to others who gripe anytime someone says anything contrary to the objectives/desires of newbies. Remember why SOME people come here: to learn from people with more experience. Not so that they can get a round of applause from everyone who agrees with them. These animals are not here to satisfy your vanity. They are rare and endangered in many cases, threatened with habitat loss in virtually all cases. If you want to keep a dart as a pet, more power to you, but at least have the decency to have an open mind and be willing to listen to people with more experience. Viv designs should attempt to imitate their natural environment, and reduce the stress of captivity.
Dkim, if I remember correctly, youve only been keeping darts a very short time, and only have a few. May I humbly suggest that you get some more experience under your belt before you A) start mixing species, and B) build a big viv like a 90? I'd wish you luck, but I think your frogs are going to need it more than you.

Thank you Divegod. I agree with him dart frogs are something we should treasure and preserve not just throw around at our pleasure.
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

Divegod,
I know what you are talking about. Yes, I've been in the hobby of dartfrogs only shortly. But I have experience in many pets. All very closely related to one common goal. For their survival and their happiness. I know a 90 gallon vivarium is hard to build for what you think I am a "newbie" to dart frogs, but I will tell you that I have experience and researched all about tank building and think I know what I'm doing, and yes, I still consider myself a newbie. I have around 15 tanks just for dart frogs, and they are the smaller type, 10 gallons, 15 gallons, 20 gallons, and 29 gallon tanks. But I have experimented with them and decided I want to do something bigger. A magnificant piece for display I was going to try the 55 gallon, but it doesn't have the height that I wanted and the 90 gallon seemed great. I won't risk any of the frogs chance of survival, and I'm not going to interbreed any of the species. I read and heard from many people that there are speices of day geckos that will do fine with thumbnails. And no, we aren't talking abut the ones the size of anole, they are smaller. As for the current of the streams, each one is monitored to see how much water will flow and can be adjusted at all times. I have a couple waterfall/streams effect in my tanks. But if you guys think, I'm a newb, I have to agree on that one. Going into this hobby has been a difficult task for me. Trying to create the perfect vivarium as one may hope to do in the future. I say the smaller vivarium has their advantages and disadvantages, but I believe there is a greater potentials in the "bigger" tank. Just cause we can have a lot more different landscape and different amount of environment and plants.

I do believe that I will run into several errors while making the tank, and I assure everyone that if there is any little possible threat, I would fix the threat before introducing any species into the vivarium. I was hoping to introduce some type of insects that won't bother the frogs and have a high survival or reproducing rate so they can't be all eaten by the frogs. Hm.....wouldn't it be cool if we could add some exotic butterflies =D. But as we saw the anole eating the imitators, I'm not planning on losing any species on doing something like that.

I know this topic went a little bit off topic, but I was hoping to find some way to have a tank set up this way. If anyone had any experience with it before please email me and give me advice.

Thank you for taking your time to read this.
Daniel Kim
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-_^

It doesn't matter how many tanks you have owned it matter about how much you know and how long you have actually experienced with darts. Have you any expeince with D. Pumilio to base off of? No you don't and you plan to just work out all the quarks you encounter with species new to you and your knowledge in a 90 gallon tank when you haven't been in the hobby for year. Not a good idea, if you had bred pumilios and day geckos, and had both in your possesion currently I may not give you so much grief but right now I fear for those pumilios life. Frankly i would either go with a gDay Gecko and possibly some type of tree frog or just drop the idea all together and save some frog lives and some money out of your pocket.
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

I guess I am pretty stubborn when I want to be. But as I said before there is nothing I'm going to risk for the lives of the any creatures. I never said owning my tanks make me an expertise of making vivarium. As I stride for going with quality. Making this tank will not be an overnight process. I am hoping to have it finish by the end of the year 2004. The effort and time I put onto this project will be from my determination. I decided that thumbnails would benefit me in my hobby, but would not try mixing into the tanks until I get prior knowledge. I was hoping to get some positive feedback and how to do things so none will be at risk. I'm Idealistically planning on putting some terriblis either "orange" or "geld" if I could ever find them. And then maybe another group of dart frogs that won't interbreed or be territorial. But I think based on the size of these frogs, it would be allowed to use certain species of day geckos and my pond idea.

As I stated before, I am still a newbie trying to perfect his dream =D.

Greenstar...I've researched and asked many people on how things can be done. I never said I was an expertise by the amount of tanks I owned, and the only reason I posted this on this is to get some feedback on what I can do to help prevent any problems. I've never worked with these different species and by the time these tanks will be done, I will have had some experience with pumilios and day geckos. My main point of this is to get a display with Dart Frogs as my main priority. As I explained before, I had tree frogs before, and I think Dart Frogs are prefable to my likings. Greenstar, my point of this post was intended towards Dart Frogs and mixing with different species. I have a wide vareity of pets and decided that Dart Frogs will be the only type of frogs I keep from now due to the space and time issues. As I said before these things take time and experience, so I have no point in saving my money, as I believe if there something you want, you just have to shoot for it. And I have no plans in losing any of the frogs at all. And I will NEVER put any frogs in danger, and was trying to find all the problems before it actually started.

If my decision contradicts everything you believe in please explain to me how I can help solve the problems, and how the problems are created. I've seen many European Vivarium was a combination of these, and if I figure out the problems and solve every little thing that causes a threat, I will then decide to introduce the species, and monitor them very closely.

If you have statements about things as This plan is Stupid, or Your going to kill all the creatures, please refrain from those comments, as I hope to only introduce the creatures ONLY when I gain more experience with them. And I know there a many ways that this plan is not "stupid" because I've seen it done. This response I made are what I think of, and in no way, am I trying to offend anyone at all. Divegod, thanks for all your opinion and feel free to contact me if you have more questions or comments. As for the rest of the readers, I'll keep you guys updated with future events.
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-_^

I have seen it done in European tanks too. That is where the anole picture came from, not to mention most of these tank they have 2x4x6 and contain about 10 total animals including all species of dart frogs. Most of the guys running those sites don't usually update when/if something goes wrong with mixing. I mixed darts at one time and wished I never did. For everyone who doesn't know/remeber I mixed Leucs and Auratus and the aurtaus were pushed to the brink of death because leucs were far to aggresive and would stand on top of the auratus at feeding time. I have been there my self and from the experience I have gained, I think it is a stupid idea to ever do it again and so I am trying to protect you and your darts from similar mistakes. I am not trying to attack you I am just saying I have been there and done that so you don't have to.

As for the plan to gain some expeirence with both pumilio and phelsuma while you are making the tank doesn't seem to bright either as it would be better to learn and expeirence both for at least a year and then build a tank for your animals (if you insist on mixing) needs. Not build the tank and try to mold the animals into it because that is going to be no good for either party. I doubt you will actually going to take a lot of time to build the tank since you seem to press ahead with this idea even though you have been told it is not a good plan.

I truely hope you reall know what you are doing cause I honesly believe you don't.

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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

Forgive this, but what Im hearing is that youre going to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone advises you to do. No offense intended Dkim, and it actually sounds like youre approaching this intelligently, but personally, Id like to see more experience before tackling something like what youve outlined. That being said, Im fairly sure what I said earlier still stands. Honestly, I wish you luck, and perhaps Im just a grumpy old man.....

Curious are you located out in Sacremento?
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants

Was, for about two years. Im back in the desert now...where I belong, since I cant get to the rainforest for a few more years!

haha I remeber you from Frognet.org a couple years ago
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2.2.3 Orange Leucs
1.0 ventrimactulatus Blue leg
0.0.4 Orange galact

Always looking for female vents and plants