Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I have an adult Eastern Box turtle that i keep indoor in a huge terrarium made of wood. Its filled with spaghnum moss and bed-a-beast and i have created a temperature gradient so that one side is very warm and the other side is very cool.

Lately, he has been burying himself in the cool area and doesnt move. I have unburied him every two days or so to feed him but after feeding he just returns to bury himself for a couple days. I was just wondering if i should be disturbing him like that or if i should just leave him to be buried and hibernate in the cool area?

He is a really hefty box turtle and seems very healthy. Any advice you can offer will be very helpful.

I'm not sure what temperature you mean when you say it is "cool" at one end of the terrarium, but I doubt it is cold enough for him to hibernate properly. He difinitely wants to hibernate and should be allowed to do so.

Do you have any room in your refrigerator or an extra refrigerator in the garage or someplace? That is the best way to hibernate any tortoise or turtle that does naturally hibernate. If turtles or tortoises are allowed to hibernate at too high of a temperature, like it is indoors in most houses, it can cause problems because they will burn up all of their fat reserves and may become sick or even die. A refrigeratro works great because you can make sure they are just the right temp.

what temperture is best to hibernate him at? would it be okay if i use a small sweater box full of substrate and put it in the fridge?

Shoot for 40 degrees. A little cooler or a little warmer (withing 2 or 3 degrees,) is okay, but shoot for 40. That is okay for food too if you use the same fridge.

A sweater box is fine. Just put some soil or newspaper in the bottom and moisten it slightly for humidity. Box trutles need humidity, even when they hibernate, so moisten the substrate a bit every few days or so. Not TOO wet.

It is important to make sure the fridge is staying the right temp, so use a thermometer for 3 or 4 days before you put the turtle in. Move the thermometer to different spots so you can see what is going on with the temp all over the fridge. Adjust the fridge control as needed.

Don't feed the turtle for about 2 weeks or so before you hibernate him because if there is food in his stomach while he hibernates, it can rot and make him very sick or even kill him. Turtles and tortoises will just naturally stop eating before they hibernate for this reason, but indoors the warmer temp may fake them into continuing to eat. It may take less than 2 weeks for the food in him to be eliminated. It depends on the temperature of the enclosure where he is now. The warmer it is, the faster the food will be eliminated from his gut.

You are taking a huge risk if you try hibernating your turtle in a refrigerator. If you are hell bent on hibernating your pet I would suggest you find somebody at your local club that has a good deal of experience at this. That person might be able to walk you through the requirements for your particular area. In inland San Diego it does not normally hit hibernating weather until the end of December or January but (surprise, surprise)it looks like winter has arrived early this year.
I usually provide a pile of grass clippings/mulch for them to bed down in. This gives insulation for the cold evening temps and the warm odd temperature spikes that can occur in the winter. I always try and give as much choice to the animal where I can. This way there is less that can go wrong.
Ed

You don't know what you are talking about, as usual. There is no risk at all if you know what you are doing. You obviously don't know much about the subject, and that's why you are afraid to hibernate reptiles, as you admitted to on the tortoise board.

If people follow my advice, it will work out just fine.

Just offering a difference of opinion.
Ed

Differences of opinion are fine, but you are always running around like chicken little screaming "Danger! Danger! Hibernation is deadly!"

Like I said before, if you just follow a few simple rules, the problems will be virtually eliminated. If you are afraid to let your animals hibernate, then fine, but please stop telling everyone that they are making a big mistake by hibernating there's.

I believe it is a big mistake for a person who is not sure of what they are doing to risk the life of (most likely) the one pet they hold dear. I'm also pointing out that it is a risk if you make a decision based on one little blurb read on the internet or any single source of information. How do you make an educated decision if you do not consider the pros and cons?
Ed

There are always risks, no matter what method you chose.
Not all methods suit the human caretakers, either, and since refrigerator hibernating requires a certain amount of mechanical know-how, pre-hibernation testing of equipment, organizational skills, as well as devotion, it may not be right for everyone, especially if they have an outdoor setup that may require only minor alteration in order to allow their turtle to do what comes naturally.
I think it quite responsible of Ed to point out the potential pitfalls of artificial hibernation, because there ARE plenty of things that can go wrong.
If you find the process to be easy, then by all means, don't skimp on the details: you should outline, step-by-step, everything you do to ensure success with refrigerator hibernation.
In the meantime, try refraining from bashing other posters who have opinions that differ from yours.
Happy Thanksgiving
Stephanie

There are risks in many things concerning keeping animals in captivity, but that doesn't mean they warrant the kind of fear and loathing exhibited by Ed. Hibernation is a natural process for many animals, and if you follow a few precautions, the potentional problems can be almost eliminated. If you had actually read what I posted, you would know that's all I was saying. Nowhere did I say there were no potential problems.

"refrigerator hibernating requires a certain amount of mechanical know-how, pre-hibernation testing of equipment, organizational skills, as well as devotion"

Mechanical know-how? You mean the abiltiy to plug a refregerator in and figure out what dial controls the temperature? Yeah, that's pretty tough, allright. Organizational skills? You mean the ability to put a tortoise in a box with some dirt or newspaper and stick it in the fridge? Okay. I never thought of it as that hard, but if you do....As far as devotion, you check on them once in a while to make sure the temp is okay and maybe spritz the substrate with water. Not too difficult. The guy was asking about his turtle that is kept indoors, so your comments about outdoor turtles is irrelevant to this conversation.

Ed didn't simply point out potential problems, he said it was a big risk to hibernate in a fridge, and that is just not true. This is consistent with his irrational fear of hibernating any animal. He has been telling people things like this all over the boards and he has also jumped on me many times when I have simply answered a question asked by another person. If you do not know the history of Ed's attacks on me, then you are coming from a position of ignorance when you chastise me, aren't you?

I have detailed the process for successful refrigerator hibernation on these boards already. I come by this knowledge from 3 years of doing it successfully myself, not just by reading
a few blurbs on the internet like you obviously did. How many times have you hibernated animals in the refrigerator? Like I said, I have done so for 3 years with 20 to 24 animals each year, so that is well over 60 hibernations without a single casualty.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

Mike

I guess this is your unique sense of humor at work again.
I'll leave it at that. I'm really enjoying the irony of our little relationship.
Unfortunately you've provided too much information to come back with and I've gone into mentel overload.
(go boy... take the ball and run with it)
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"I've gone into mentel overload."

I bet that didn't take much, did it?

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

There really isn't any mechanical know how needed to hibernate in a fridge.

-Jesse

Since I don't recall you're having posted on this particular board in the last year or so, I have no basis for knowing about your "history" of exchanges with EJ.
I'd like to point out a few things to you:
The more this topic is discussed, the more details you divulge, adding to the list of equipment needed. Since there are more people than we may ever know about who read these posts, without posting themselves, and no doubt some are youngsters, then telling someone to just stick a turtle in the fridge in a sweaterbox filled with damp whatever could be an invitation for disaster for someone who reads no further.
As for the indoor turtle/ outdoor hibernation issue: until asked, no mention had been made of geographical location, so I really don't think my inquiry was unreasonable.
As far as mechanical skills go, well, fridges differ, and there may be someone out there with a clunker with a not-so-simple temperature adjuster. You never know.
Organizational skills and devotion...? Well, frankly, for some pet owners, monitoring weight, temperatures, and humidity levels, not to mention other details, may prove to be too much effort. Witness the astonishing number of pets that are neglected, abandoned, or otherwise given up on in this country each year, and end up in shelters a few weeks or months after Christmas when the novelty has worn off.
So yes, you did come across as being somewhat hostile. I was merely trying to point out that fridge hibernation may not be for everybody, and why.

Stephanie

A pile of grass clippings is not adequate for a turtle to hibernate in if you live in California. Not cold enough.

It's worked for 2 years for me so far and haven't lost a boxie to hibernation yet but I still aproach this topic with extreme caution regardless.
Ed

You can do a couple of things: boost the temps at the 'cool' end of the setup so that its about 75 degrees there and 85 at the warm end. You have to trick your turtle into thinking its summer in order to keep it awake for the winter.
Or you can try the frige method.
I suggest you read the link below, written by a herp vet, and also scroll down in this forum to a Sept 22 post titled "Fridge Hibernation" and read the responses posted by Nathan, who describes in some detail how he has done it with his.
Stephanie
Link

This is assuming that you have compelling reasons not to allow it to hibernate more naturally outside.
Stephanie

I live in Canada and i think it would get way too cold to hibernate him outside.

Al,

Many folks put them in moss, spaghum and dirt filled rubbermaids and find a place in their garage where the temps don't drop below freezing. This is the method I will be using. If my garage drops below freezing (I don't know yet because I just moved here), I will likely use the refridgeration method.

The golden rules...

Temperature no lower than 38, no higher than 50.
Do not hibernate any sick animals or low weight animals.
Hydrate your animals well before hibernating.
Make sure they have no food in their gut by not feeding them and soaking them daily for roughly 20-40 days. I usually stop feeding for at least 30 days prior.
While hibernating, check on their weight and general condition. If any appear sick or are having trouble (swollen eyes or breathing difficulty), warm them up and maintain them in a normal environment. If they are sick, seek veterinary care.

Let me know if you have questions. BTW, I don't usually hibernate young boxies, just 4" and above. This is not a rule but in my opinion, the young ones just don't need to be hibernated while in captivity. For me, hibernation is more for keeping the breeding cycles in check.

Paul

Paul,
I am hibernating my eastern box in a fridge and I have two thermometers. One measures the ambient air temp, the other meausures the subsrate temp. The substrate temp is always at or near 42 F while the air temp may get as low as 35. The point is the substrate (noistened peat moss/crushed leaves) acts as insulation. Something will only insulate assuming there are temp. changes. So, I have fuond even though air temp can go lower the subsrate won't.

-Jesse

I've observed the same... I was merely providing some safe guidance. I try to stay on the warmer side to avoid freezing. I've found that if you can reach 40, the turtles will be fine. There are many refridgerators (the smaller ones) that have trouble getting to 40 on every rack. Mine will make it to 38 on the top rack and the bottom rack may reach 42, tops.

Paul

Paul,

MY boxie is about 4 inches, i have 2 babies as well but i will not be hibernating them.
I have a couple of questions and concerns:

1. If i stop feeding him for more then a month, wont that burn of all the fat he needs to survive during hibernation? (keep in mind that i have him indoors in a terrarium that is quite warm so he is still active)
2. If during hibernation i interrupt him and take him out to weigh him, wont that disturb his hibernation?
3. How long should i hibernate him for?
4. is air circulation a concern if i hibernate him in the fridge?
5. Finally, just wondering if you have successfully hibernated your turtles in the fridge in the past.

I want to thank everyone for all the help and advice.

Alex

I'm sure Paul will not mind me adding my 2 cents.
One of the main reasons I stress letting the turtle do it's own thing is because each time you take control of a factor that is an increased margin of error.
So, by taking the turtle off feed you are taking control of an important step. By continuing to feed the turtle and slowly lowering the temperatures you leave the turtle in control. That is, the turtles metabolism will slow down. It will stop eating and the remaining unused food in it's system should be evacuated naturally.
With boxies that are kept outdoors this happens naturally. You can see a pattern of them eating less and becoming less active and then disappearing.
The winters in San Diego are usually short. (about a month) The boxies I have will vanish about a month before it gets really cold. I have dug them up and feel their weight and give them a poke (which I'm sure they appreciate) to make sure they are alive. I'll try to check the nose for runnyness (which is usually not possible) and then put them back where they chose to be. Again, I try to give them as much control as possible.
The disturbace of my animals didn't seem to bother them at all.
Ed

You bring up some very good points that need addressing. It WILL burn up precious fat reserves if you make the animal go a month without eating in warm temps. Trust me, in a warm environment, a turtle or tort will process and expel everything he has eaten within ten days or 2 weeks at the longest once you stop feeding. I usually go 2 weeks to be safe, some people go a little longer, but any more than that and you risk putting them under with too little fat to sustain them. It is different outdoors, but indoors you can control the temp and speed things up.

Taking them out to weigh or hydrate them will not affect the hiberantion as long as you don't take any longer than about 10 minutes or so. If you soak them, do it in cool water.

Hibernate for 2 months minimum, 4 months maximum. Some tortoises, like Russians, can hibernate for 8 or even 9 months without any problems, but it is not necessary in a captive situation. If you are going to return an animal to an indoor enclosure, you can take them out of hibernation regardless of the outside weather. Since I keep mine outdoors, I always wait until the weather warms up, around early March or so, before I take them out of the fridge and put them back in their pens. Roughly, I have mine in the fridge from late Nov or early Dec. to March.

As long as you open the fridge every day or almost every day, they will have enough air. They breath so little during hibernation, they don't need much. If I am going to be away for a few days, I plug in an aquarium pump and run the tube inside the fridge. That will be plenty of air.

Awesome advice, tortoisehead. I think i have gathered enough information to decide that i will hibernate in the fridge. I know all the necessary precautions and procedures to make sure it will be safe.
I began my no-feeding today so he should be ready in 2 weeks or so to hibernate.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

BIG mistake... don't do it.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Boo!

I bet you didn't know that some box turtles hibernate under water. I had one that would go into my pond every winter with the red-eared sliders and not emerge until late March. From what I've since read, that is not at all unusual. I bet you would freak out and pull the turtle out of the water if you saw that happen.

"He's drowning! He's drowning!"

There's a paper there if you have good records.
Write it up and submit it to the Herpreview. I'll bet they'd print it. That is noteworthy. I can send you a contact for one of the editors.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Maybe I will do that. I like writing stuff. I don't know what you mean by good records, though. I just observed him doing it over the course of 4 years or so. I didn't keep any records except in my tiny mind.

It was a three-toed. I guess box turtles have the areas around their rear ends where they can take in oxygen from the water just like water turtles do.

an eastern boxie... maybe... but a three toed? That is extremely noteworthy.You really should write it up.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Way to go, buddy! You read up, took advice, and most of all, used your own common sense. Good luck with the hibernation.

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'd still suggest you talk to a local person for more advice but the 'garage' suggestion is probably the safest way to go. Where you are located you might also consider an closet located adjacent to an outside wall. That would also probably get cold enough.
Ed

an unheated basement would work too

It isn't necessarily "more natural" to hibernate a turtle outside. I live in southern California, and if I were to try to hibernate an animal that comes from an area that gets much colder in the winter, the animal may have problems because it cannot go deeply enough into hibernation at the warmer temps. It would use too much of it's fat reserves and may starve. Even if this doesn't happen the first year, or even the second, it could affect them over time and eventually kill them.

It's all about temperature during hibernation.

That is one good link. I have the greatest respect for Dr. Klingenberg. From what I understand he started out as a herper and remains a herper besides being a vet to this day.
Thanks Steph.
Ed

Thank Tess Cook, who happens to be one of the forum hosts, for her excellent website. Thats where I found the link, so I can only take credit for passing it along.Here's a link to her site, if you haven't already visited:
Link

I have that one book marked also but as with many other good sites there's just too much information to sift through it all.
The thanks was for bringing it to my attention.
Ed

And have a happy Thanksgiving.