Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems as though the Asian water monitor (Varanus Salvator) has become a very popular species in herpetoculture. There are many reasons this animals “success” as a captive monitor species. They can be very beautiful, generally become very handlable adults, and are readily available for a very low price. People buy them thinking they will have a “gentle giant” and a new family “pet”. But 99% of water monitors in captivity are either wild caught or captive hatched. This means that the animal will have to acclimate, and will take hours every week to become the animal that there owner hoped for.
In my opinion, I think that importation of wild animals needs to be limited to breeders only. We are depleting populations all over the world of animals that are the most important niche in the ecosystem. Once these animals are gone, there is no turning back. And what for? To keep an 8’ monitors in an 8’ cage, and to be fed a mouse once a week? I find this ridiculous. And the very few animals that are actually produced in captivity are so outrageously priced that few are sold. Why pay $250 for an animal when you can pay $80? This is America, and honestly most of us care more about saving a quick buck then saving the world we live in. And even if the prices remained at $250 for a single animal, at least they would not be such a common pet store, or “beginner” species.
Not only is importation a relevant issue, the locals that live with these animals also use them for “personal use”. Millions of monitor lizards are killer every year for there skin, as well as meat in some cases. Their skin is used for make clothing, and other leather type products. Some tribes use the skin ceremonies. Monitor meat is eaten in many cultures, and is sometimes considered a delicacy.
So now I see that this ultimate hunter has become the hunted. Is there a quick fix to this dilemma? How can we convince everyone to save this wonderful species from the endangerment and soon extinction? Is there an answer? All we can do is reach out, and strive to save this magnificent animal.
http://varanuscreations.com">Link

Good post. Even more so than salvators, many of the other south-east Asian species that have limited, poorly known island distributions could disappear quickly if nothing is done. Unfortunately, the only things 99.9% of reptile keepers ever consider when choosing between wild caught and captive bred are: 1. what's the difference in cost, to them
2. what the health issues might be (parasites, stress), which also amounts to what's the difference in cost (in vet bills) to them

Very few people think about the animals themselves when making this decision.

That is very true. There have been WAY too many timor monitors as well. I hope that by spreading our word, more people will decide to buy captive produced animals. And its not just monitors that are being torn from there home, the only thing they know. For instance, tigers. Do you realize how very few of them are left in the wild? There are over 3 times more tigers in captivity than in the wild. And somewhere around 40% of those are owned my private partys. All of those animals that were produced for pets could have been eventually reintroduced back into the wild. And now there are tiger rescue facilitys in the United States. Anyway, think about that one. Thanks,
Jed Hassfeld
Varanus Creations

Alex Oliver

not sure if you are referring to the movie or to something else.

the movie was about the fish trade
how most of it is w.c. and not c.b.

Alex Oliver

gobble gobble

the gulls were my favourite characters in the film, a bit reminiscent of Feathers McGraw, the penguin in Nick Park's 'The Wrong Trousers'.

They sparked a bit of discussion amongst the people I worked with. Were they saying 'mine mine mine' or 'mate mate mate'? Apparently (can't verify this), according to the Disney Pixar people, they were supposed to be saying 'mate mate mate' but whomever did the voiceovers didn't quite get the accent right and they sound like 'mine mine mine'. I think 'mine mine mine' is more gull like, anyway.

Man, thats some good stuff right there! Amen brutha! Do you happen to know if they made more than just those 3 episodes? I would love to find out if more were produced. 3 is just NOT enough!

So you guys were thinking that they said "mate"? Like "G'day mate"? You should hear my Australian pirate impression! Where there australian pirates? Hmmmmm... "Ayyeeee g'day mate!"
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Penn Jillette (1955-present), in a compuserve chat

have you seen the ads Nick Park did for British Gas (or was it electricity?) years ago? Fantastic stuff. There's an animation he did also, in which he interviewed real people, edited what they said, then used claymation to create zoo animals to mouth the words. Hilarious.

Ironically, one of a few marine fish species being captive bred for the pet market are clownfish. Seahorses are being captive bred on a large scale too.
Freshwater fish are for the most part farmed in Florida, and those that aren't can be pretty pricey.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

and the whole thing about the dentist catching fish to bring back down to Sydney was part of the plot, not based on reality. There are numerous threats to the reef, for sure, but individuals collecting fish for their aquaria isn't one of them. The funny thing is, people in Sydney wanting tropical fish for their aquaria are better off collecting in Sydney harbour in autumn. Every spring, the pelagic fry of many reef fish species drift down here with the East Australia Current (which, again, is a bit different than portrayed in the film ). They grow up here during the summer, but die when the water cools in early winter, so collecting them in autumn not only stocks your home aquarium but saves the lives of these individual fish. It's not unusual to see cleaner wrasse and lionfish here even in winter, although they are unable to breed in Sydney waters, and I have seen butterfly fish, angel fish and numerous other tropicals in late summer.

the public aquarium that I work at has a licensing deal with Disney/Pixar for this film, so I've been quite involved in Nemo promotions around the aquarium and in our advertising. As a consequence, I had invites to a preview screening of the movie when it was first released in the US and to the premiere when it opened in Sydney. One of the producers was at the premiere, talking about the making of the film. He had never been to Australia before.

I think they did a wonderful job considering the research for the film was all done overseas, but if I wanted to be a pedant I could point out a few flaws in accuracy. The appearance of brown pelicans, for example (they are native to the Americas). What I am getting at is that it wasn't ever meant to be a movie about fish conservation in Australia, it was meant to be a nice story. If it were meant to be a movie about conservation, I think they would have put more into the research (like actually sending someone over here). It's a cute film and a nice story, try not to read too much into it.

np

O.K. I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion of the movie, but I did not see anything in Finding Nemo that resembled the "pet trade". A diver catches one fish at a time and he is collecting for the pet trade? Funny thing is I didnt go see it in theatres because I heard it was a story about tropical fish conservation. Which by the way, I am not opposed to, I just dont want to see a film about it. Then I bought the dvd for my son, and what do you know, it's a very charming story about a fathers love that has absolutely nothing to do with fish conservation. Now I really wish I would have seen it on the big screen.

BigMike

Now that would be SWEET!
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"Look busy!"

Are you drunk?

Alex oliver

"All of those animals that were produced for pets could have been eventually reintroduced back into the wild"

Actually, that's rarely possible. Most of the privately owned, captive bred tigers are descendants of zoo and circus animals going back to the days when it didn't matter which subspecies you had, as long as you had a male and a female. Consequently there are too many hybrids out there. The rarest subspecies, such as the Sumatran tiger, are being bred by a handful of institutions but all of the captive breeding in the world isn't going to bring back the habitat. The biggest killer of wild tigers is lack of space.

Those tiger rescue facilities you are referring to (yes, I saw that program, too) have more to do with allowing individual tigers to live out the rest of their lives in relative comfort, compared the poor conditions they were rescued from, than tiger conservation.

Yes, you are right about the sub-species idea. I was just trying to make a quick example, but you are right. What meant about the rescue places is that they should not have to exist. Thanks for your insight though
Have a good one,
Jed Hassfeld
Varanus Creations
http://varanuscreations.com">varanuscreations.com

As I've said in the past.. humans don't do what is right or wrong.. they do what they have the power to do. Humans have the power and ability to remove animals from the wild and so they do. Whether or not its right or wrong rarely enters into it. As for reintroducing captive bred tiger's to the wild.. its a nearly impossible endeavor... Its possible but not feasible since most if not all.. A... wouldn't work.. and B. have nowhere to go. Reintroduction to the wild of animals, especially predatory animals that must LEARN to hunt... is more than difficult. Its all well and good to release herbivorious animals who have to forage.. but for a predator that needs to actively hunt.. thats nearly impossible for a human to teach.. and as many of the larger carnivores are solitary hunters....they can't learn from each other.
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Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
2.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 1 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

HI,

Your ideas are good and sound, however, the real problem is not entirely the pet-trade market but rather the skin trade markets that decimates a million - 2 million V. salvators each year! Where does one find a million salvators? I have no idea....about 450,000 skin pieces of salvator were imported into the USA via Mexico from Jakarta, Singapore last year....now they are the real evil masters of vara-massacre in the world...stop that would be great - but unfortunately alot of people this is their only cash and very hard to tell them to stop so we do not have shoes and luggage made of V. salvator - but this needs to be done.

Also refinements and better regulations for the animals sent here in live trade would ensure less mortality numbers therein.

cheers,
mbayless

I totally agree. Nice post!
Jed Hassfeld
Varanus Creations
varanuscreations.com

Jed Hassfeld Wrote-

"It seems as though the Asian water monitor (Varanus Salvator) has become a very popular species in herpetoculture. There are many reasons this animals “success” as a captive monitor species. They can be very beautiful, generally become very handlable adults, and are readily available for a very low price."

***Right, they do make good pets for the responsible pet owner. So what's your point?

Jed Hassfeld Wrote-

"People buy them thinking they will have a “gentle giant” and a new family “pet”."

*** People buy a lot of different animals thinking they will the perfct pet. Look how many dogs and cats get abuse by there owner every day. Just because somebody buys a captive born monitor does not mean it will not get abused. I seen hundreds of captive born animals that were abused!

Jed Hassfeld Wrote-

"But 99% of water monitors in captivity are either wild caught or captive hatched."

*** Duh!!!, What else could they be? Test-tube monitors?

Jed Hassfeld Wrote-

"In my opinion, I think that importation of wild animals needs to be limited to breeders only. We are depleting populations all over the world of animals that are the most important niche in the ecosystem. Once these animals are gone, there is no turning back. And what for? To keep an 8’ monitors in an 8’ cage, and to be fed a mouse once a week? I find this ridiculous."

*** You find this ridiculous? Then why do you keep monitors? If you think it is so ridiculous to keep monitors in captivity you should get rid of your monitors and stop making these hypocritical statements!!

EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!!!I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!!!!!THAT 99% THING REALLY GOT ME TO!

Monitors are very captivating and such, but they do not make great pets in the traditional sense. Most people who buy them have no idea how to care for them or exactly what they are getting themselves into. This is especially true of the baby savannah monitors you see at PetCo. Very cute. If someone's buying a monitor because it is cheap, do you think they will care for it properly. More specifically, a savannah is much cheaper than an ackie, so people buy savannahs. I, personally cannot keep a large monitor because I cannot stand to see the mess that is made after a monitor has just fed.

There is really isn't a justification for someone inexperienced to start out with wild caught, but there is (and this is even debatable) for someone with a captive breeding program. You experts on the forums can even spot people in the classified section claiming their monitors or captive hatched, farm raised, blah blah blah, so I totally believe that more than the majority of monitors are wild caught.

The pet trade may only be a small part of the problem, BUT it is still part of the problem. At least when it comes to animals being endangered. The majority of seahorses are caught for the Traditional Medicine Trade and very few end up with the aquarium trade. The number in the aquarium trade is very very small relative to the medicine trade, but the majority of these animals do not survive in captivity.

Beginning the middle of next year, seahorses are to be red-listed and reclassified as CITES appendix I. Nobody has a problem with that because it is a KNOWN problem. As far as the reintroduction of animals. With seahorses, it's pretty much impossible unless they're F1 babies. When comparing a wild-caught and a captive bred seahorse of the SAME species, there are noticable differences. Not only that, because captive bved seahorses aren't exposed to certain pathogens, they usually cannot survive living in the same tank as wild caught seahorses and will eventually be wiped out.

My point is, it's easier to prevent the animals from being taken out of the wild than to introduce them back into the wild. Once in captivity, after many generations of successful breeding, they would've evolved into animals more adapted for captivity than for the wild.

Go ahead, flame away!

Duong

not a hypocrite
-wildcaught- from the wild
-captivehatched- gravid wild or wild collected eggs hatched in captivity
-captive bred and born mated in captivity, hatched in captivity
-testtube-hmmm sounds interesting but it would be hard to get herp sperm yes?

hmm what is your point in being the negative animal?
hmm, i think it is fine to keep a monitor... as long as it has enough room to live a happy, healthy, thriving existance.
just a thought
and by the way dont come off so much as an ass, its very unfiting for any person

ashley

>>Jed Hassfeld Wrote-
>>
>>"It seems as though the Asian water monitor (Varanus Salvator) has become a very popular species in herpetoculture. There are many reasons this animals “success” as a captive monitor species. They can be very beautiful, generally become very handlable adults, and are readily available for a very low price."
>>
>>***Right, they do make good pets for the responsible pet owner. So what's your point?
>>
>>Jed Hassfeld Wrote-
>>
>> "People buy them thinking they will have a “gentle giant” and a new family “pet”."
>>
>>*** People buy a lot of different animals thinking they will the perfct pet. Look how many dogs and cats get abuse by there owner every day. Just because somebody buys a captive born monitor does not mean it will not get abused. I seen hundreds of captive born animals that were abused!
>>
>>Jed Hassfeld Wrote-
>>
>> "But 99% of water monitors in captivity are either wild caught or captive hatched."
>>
>>*** Duh!!!, What else could they be? Test-tube monitors?
>>
>>
>>Jed Hassfeld Wrote-
>>
>>"In my opinion, I think that importation of wild animals needs to be limited to breeders only. We are depleting populations all over the world of animals that are the most important niche in the ecosystem. Once these animals are gone, there is no turning back. And what for? To keep an 8’ monitors in an 8’ cage, and to be fed a mouse once a week? I find this ridiculous."
>>
>>*** You find this ridiculous? Then why do you keep monitors? If you think it is so ridiculous to keep monitors in captivity you should get rid of your monitors and stop making these hypocritical statements!!
>>
>>
>>
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Just A Thought
Ashley
;P

You wouldnt say theres no difference.
If you get a "farm hatched" animal (please its WC)(how honest are the people who collect and trap them, "oh yeah its born in captivity here" it will still stand a high chance of being infected with parasites from their home country, after all any way you look at it they live in a barrel outdoors and are fed wild caught foods (if fed at all) before they are sent over here after they hatch.
Captive Bred animals are bred and born in captivity, they arent infested with parasites. There are many reasons to buy captive bred animals, their attitude is among the best for keeping in captivity, they dont know what its like in the wild, 100 times healthier, etc etc. Not only that but you are not putting money in the pockets of those who mass import 16000 savannahs and that many niles a year. My current group of animals are all captive bred and I can say that there is a big difference. I have had several WC animals as well in the past.

Id like to see this, and prove its genetics. I have an inbred BT/WT cross thats over 6ft long and 25.5 lbs empty stomach (after over a week of not eating), guess what SHE is less than 2 years old, and she produced over 40 eggs (her first clutch)infertile of course, but due to bad nesting she became egg bound and they were removed, she was also spayed because I didnt want to lose her to another of my mistakes, yes my mistakes, not genetics. I havean inbred red ackie also thats probably 10 generations from the wild, no problems there. I have a male BT/WT cross that was born with problems, but they were incubation defects not genetic.