Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Now, I'm a firm believer in housing all chameleons in all screen or at least 2 sided screened enclosures. BUT!!!

Here is what "World renowned best selling author on reptile care and husbandry" says in his book: "Essential Care Of Chameleons":

GLASS ENCLOSURES WITH SCREEN TOPS
Although some have made an issue of the suitability of glass walled enclosures with screen tops for chameleons, this thinking is incorrect. Certain species require high relative humidity and do well in large all glass screen top enclosures. The reduced ventalation helps maintain an optimal level of humidity. Generally the humidity loving Cameroon species such as four-horned and montane chameleons do well in glass sided screen top enclosures. Carpet chameleons will do well long term and have been bred and raised in glass sided enclosures. Jackson's, veiled, and panther chameleons have been successfully raised and kept long-term in larger glass sided enclosures with screen tops. As could be expected the small leaf litter chameleons of the genera Brooksia and Rampholeon generally do well in glass sided enclosures with screen tops. The often mentioned stress of chameleons seeing their reflection in the glass, I believe, is greatly exaggerated. This being said the best enclosures for large chameleons species are large enclosures no matter what they are made of. Keeping larger species loose on indoor trees is even better.

Now, you can argue with this or not but I thought it was interesting.

n/p

you would happen to be a young canadian?

dennis

I would agree with every point on there except the panthers and veileds bit. As long as the enclosure is big enough, like those huge ones the arrow frog guys in Europe make, then there wouldn't be a problem. When we think glass enclosure we tend to naturally think 20gallon.

-Brock

i know people up near wear i live (northern US) keep most of there chams in large glass enclosures becuase they hold more heat and humidity. also you can see right through glass so it looks really cool. all the poeple ive seen have screen cages thourgh that they put the chams in outside weather permiting.

n/p

I 100% believe that the two respiratory infections that Zoe experienced and almost killed him were a direct result of him being kept in an all glass enclosure, with only a screen top.

I believe that keeping him in that enclosure allowed the air to become stagnant and bacteria levels to climb.
Since moving him into his screen enclosure we have had NO problems (knock on wood of course!)

No one will ever be able to convince me that a glass enclosure is conducive to a happy, healthy chameleon, or that it's ever the right choice. I understand that babies, and leaf chams are a different story...but I am speaking of my observation with my full grown veiled chameleon.

I will always be very vocal in my opinions of glass versus screen. With screen being the winner every time.

I hope that your post here doesn't encourage inexperienced cham keepers to head off to their local pet shop and purchase a chameleon and a 10 or 20 gallon aquarium to house it in all because someone who wanted to stir the pot made a post quoting some "expert" saying it was okay to do so.
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Kim

n/p

The missing point:
Never has it been said that you CAN'T raise chameleons in an all glass aquarium...
I could raise a chameleon in a shoe-box...
Experienced keepers RECOMMEND all-screen enclosures.

We, as keepers, try to eliminate the possibility of things going wrong.

Sure, a glass aquarium keeps the humidity up, but with poor air exchange...
I would much rather deal with the obsticle of keeping my chams hydrated, than fight a Respiratory Infection.

I would much rather deal with my cham clinging to the screen rather than watch him endlessly paw at the glass.

This author seems to have lost touch with reality. Someone should pull him by the pony-tail and snap him with the reality stick.

The current advice about enclosures is still the best. And I think it's going to take more than "flippie" spreading bad advice to change things..

This guy's ego has got the best of him..
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

whoa...

I don't think anyone should be beaten with a reality stick just yet.LOL! I think the "science" of chameleon husbandry is at is infancy, and a lot is still being learnt and discovered daily. I think people shouldn't be quick to judge or to toss out any idea, just becuase it is a little different from what we have heard or accustomed to. If we keep this kind of attitude, we may never encounter new discoveries. We may have never evolve from just looking at chameleons in the wild, into keeping them in our homes.

Truth is, everybody has their own expereince, and that is a fact that should never ever be discounted.

A lot of expereince keepers living in colder areas have kept chameleons in glass enclosures succesfully . In fact, zoos do it too. I think the other guy (sorry i forgot youre'name) summed it up correctly.. that size is the main matter if it is glass enclosures.Now i am not saying that everybody should throw out their screen enclosures, and I certainly don't currently keep my chams in a glass aquaruim at this point, But be open to ideas that is out there. It might just be the next big thing.

Here's another article concerning caging from the July 2002 edition of chameleon E-Zine entitled "caging up north"
Link

I agree with chameleoncrow.
Although i do house my chameleons in screen cages i don't mist or keep humidity as high as some here say (except during shed). I mist once a day and have a dripper for drinking.
I have kept all my chameleons likes this over the years and have yet to experience a problem.
I also feed a staple diet of crix although i will be getting roaches going soon (cost effective) and have not had a single chameleon refuse.
So chameleon care and husbandry is ongoing and not an exact science..
If it works for you and your chameleon comgrats, if not try something different and see what the results are..
Remember, because you write books on different animals doesn't mean you are an expert only that you know how to market..

I thought it would be appropriate to examine the "glass enclosure" article, and we all can contribute our own theories.
We can turn this thread into a positive experience:

The problems with glass enclosures and overcoming this problems.
by: The Kingsnake-Chameleon Message Board Members

#1 Contriubution by Joe

Reflection: Lighting angles reflect off glass and create a mirror image. Chameleons are threatened by the mirrored image of themselves, which causes stress.

Suggested Solutions: Use a large enlosure with dense planting. Although you won't eliminate the reflections, you will limit exposure to them.

Air exchange: Air moving in and out of the cage is limited, this slows the humidity fluctuation in the cage making humidity easier to maintain. However, air exchange can also lead to Repiratory infections and bacteria to form inside the cage

Suggested Solutions: Have an exhaust system that dries out the cage on a certain schedule?

Visual Boundries: Chameleons do not see glass as being a visual barrier. A chameleon will paw at the glass thinking it can move through the glass. It never makes sense to the chameleon that it should stop trying because it hasn't been successful.

Suggested Solutions: cover the glass with something that isn't transparent?
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

Like I said.. I can raise a chameleon in a shoe-box.

If I were an author and started giving advice about rearing in shoeboxes (just because I was successful with it) does not make the chameleon community any better off.

I know there is a kid somewhere that is going to read "glass aquariums are ok" and accept it as fact. They're going to drop a chameleon in there and be at this forum in a few months wondering what happened.

Husbandry is an evolving science. Each of us experiment every day and share our ideas, successes and failures.

In flippies article, it states that claims against glass enclosures are exaggerated. That glass can help humidity and that reflections aren't as big an issue as thought to be.
Flippy didn't go far enough to let the reader weigh the risks of using glass. YES, glass will help humidity..very true.
YES, reflections are only a small issue..easy to overcome.
BUT, when a kid drops his cham in the tank, and it dies because he didn't know enough.. how did we benefit?

If flippy would have published a method of overcoming the issues, I would have had no problem with the article. In my eyes, he complicated something that wasn't an issue.

What was the purpose of his article? Is he worried about the cost that keepers face? Was he trying to save us time by suggesting an easier way to keep our humidity levels up?

I can find 1000 articles on the benefits of using a screen cage.. I can find 1000 articles on keeping humidity up... I can find 1000 articles about keeping your chameleon hydrated. If you want innovation, there are plenty of other territories that need some desperate attention. The industry doesn't need flippy re-inventing the wheel.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

The artical should have been more in debth! Like the other guy stated there are ways around some of the problems with glass cages. It also states in the artical to use "large" glass cage. So sure if you spend over $300 on a 180gal all glass, you could probably keep one in a glass cage without so many problems. but why spend that much instead of a $40 screen cage that you know is not going to cause problems?!?!?! people are going to read this and think. . hmm a 30gal is large that will do for my veiled or panther. if the writer would have at least specified alittle more on size and some problems that "could" happen if they are housed in a glass cage rather than a screen cage, this might not be such an issue.

This angers me! poor chams cant bark or express their unhappyness or illness in a glass cage. People see it pawing the glass and think... aww thats cute... or its just trying to escape. Yea its just trying to escape getting ill and dieing.

its true, anyone can write a book and sell it! does not mean the information is correct. there should be some regulation on this. I could right a book on how raising your kid in a shed is best becuase of less mess to your house or no noise but that does not mean you should do it.
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From Sunny Florida
Jovana's kids listed below
1.1 Veileds
1.0 Ambanja Panther
1.1 Tamatave Panther

Is it not true that idea of keeping chameleons in screen enclosures came secondary to the conventional glass enclosure that most animals were housed-in in the early days? Is it not true the very first idea of housing chameleons in screen enclosures was the brainchild of another “flippy” that suggested something very different from what was the norm long time ago. Aren’t you using this very method of using screen enclosures today that some other “flippy” formulated long ago? Truth is, if you keep a closed mind, or if people back then always kept a right-winged attitude towards change and innovation, we wouldn’t have screen enclosures today … now would we?

I have to examine the article again, but I believe the author was suggesting ways to keep chameleons warm and humidity high during the very cold winters up north, and not to change the chameleon husbandry as a whole. Just a little helpful information, because believe me, it gets really cold and dry in the winter up north.

I do believe I have read the aforementioned book that suggested chameleons can be house in glass enclosures. I believe he did state the risks and did provide ways to overcome it. I believe one of his suggestions was to use a small table fan to regulate the air above the screen top of the glass enclosure.

It is true, that everyone can write a book, but if a person does not have to common sense to discern what is reasonable and what is not, then the problem lies with him/her, and not the author. It is true, that one person can write a book and state that you should raise your kid in a shed. But according to a sane person, would that be reasonable?
Raising a child is pretty much a very studied and established”science” compared to chameleon husbandry, thusly, how can the two be even be compared? Something that is such an open field, I feel, shouldn’t be rejected with all cost at the minute it is suggested. Who knows, there just might be some truth to it.

If a kid is not smart enough to read between the lines of the article, and to not use the information to his benefit, then that kid shouldn’t keep a chameleon at all. It is just common sense.

If we are afraid to share or accept some potentially useful information because we are afraid kids might throw their chameleons in tanks just because they read it somewhere, then shouldn’t we stop letting teenagers drive cars, for the fear that they might hurt themselves? A person should be responsible and smart enough and use common sense when doing everything in life. We shouldn’t turn every idea down just because we are afraid that there might be that one bad apple to might make a mistake.

My plight is just to ask people to keep an open mind concerning a “science” that is in its infancy. Again, not to ask people to throw out their screen cages and buy glass tanks. Just be open –minded toward information.

Please do not be offended by this or my other posts, nor take things personally. Just thought we could engage in some mind stimulating debate/discussion on the very open filed of chameleon husbandry!

You make some pretty good arguements.

Where we differ is that I have much more compassion for the animals and not so much for the keepers.

I am to tired tonight to make a proper rebuttle tonight.

I will respond tomorrow.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

On the contrary... i do have a lot of compassion for the animals, more so than the keepers. I stress that we should be open minded, so as to possibly find ways to improve the husbandry of chameleons when it is cold and dry. I think that indicates my compassion.

Anyway, keep em coming
let us stimulate our minds...
Although i might be too busy to respond tommorow...
Anyway, thanks for the short and stimulating debate.

How do you consider, going backward and revisiting something that hasn't worked in the past, innovation? How is it considered being forward thinking? Sounds more like the left wing union people trying to put the steel industry in the "wave of the future" department.
Yes, In the beginning there were many who used glass because there wasn't an easy way to get a screen enclosure besides building one for yourself. During that time, we needed a better solution and someone came up with screen eclosures to address the glass shortcomings. It worked out great.

BUT, if Flippy went on to describe how to overcome all the bad stuff in his article; I retract my arguement on this whole discussion. Because my whole arguement was predicated upon the lack of explanation.

I am also from up north. (Ohio) I fight the dry winter air and have come up with some pretty good ways of maintaining my humidity without going back to glass.
Aside from all of these side arguements, How do you see glass enclosures as trying something different? We've been there.. done that. In isn't an innovation.. In my opinion, it's a pompous, pony-tailer trying to be smarter than everyone else.

If your only arguement is that discrediting Flippy is hurting the the path of the future, I have to discredit the arguement on the same pretense. (lack of explanation)

Another point: You are saying that responsibility lies on the reader more than the author for interpretation of good advice?
This is just insane and doesn't exist. A person reading a book is looking for the proper way of doing things. The author holds the responsibility of providing good advice or at least look out for the best interest of the reader.
If he doesn't, he causes more harm and puts animals at risk.
I think it is the responsibility of the authors and the breeders and the pet stores to look out for the animals.

You'd be pretty pissed if you bought a vitamin supplament that was formulated for chameleons; BUT, the supplament included a fruit extract that was toxic to chameleons? There's a certain trust you have...

I have an open mind.. I don't have a blank mind.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

Innovation is not merely limited to looking forward, but also looking back, learning from the past, and try to formulate new ways of improvement. So how can there be innovation, without referring from the past, and using the information that was formulate in the past. The square root would not have come to formulation had there been no sum, or no numbers.

You said you come from up north, and you came up with your own ways to overcome the problems. Kudos to you. But there are other people who come up with their own solutions, and if it works for them, is it right to restrict them for sharing and using their methods, just because it differs from yours? Are you saying your method is better?

Using glass enclosures indeed isn’t something different. But using glass enclosures in a situation where humidity and heat is in consideration is. It is one of the ways that the author has tested, and proved successful for him. It not like “flippy” thought of some idea out of the blue and thinks, “Hmmm….thats sounds cool and innovative, therefore I shall write an article to sound smart!” It has been his time tested strategy, and he is merely sharing what he thinks works.

So you think the reader has no responsibility whatsoever when reading a book. So you think a reader should blindly follow the words of the author without putting an ounce of thought into it? I think such a reader is insane.

I never said that the responsibility lies more within the reader than the author. I think that both parties have equal responsibility and should practice common sense. You say that “the author holds the responsibility of providing good advice or at least look out for the best interest of the reader.” Well, through the authors experience and time tested methods, and in his mind, he is holding “responsibility of providing good advice or at least look out for the best interest of the reader.” Just because his opinion is different form yours, doesn’t mean he is responsible or not looking out for the reader. In fact, he lists the risks and ways to overcome it, should you decide to use his methods.

The fact that the other article was posted in a reasonably reliable source (the chameleon E-zine) , probably proves that it was read and examined by the “experts” of the industry and the e-zine and approved, or it wouldn’t have been published.

It is not like the authors are people plucked out of the blue to write a book. There are reasonably well-known authors, and you can be the judge of their credibility. Heck, if you don’t agree with his ways, then you don’t. By all means, continue using your way. But in my opinion, restricting information, other people’s opinions and experience, by putting down their claims and devaluing their experience, posses more negativity to our animals than almost anything else.

In theory, I agree with everything you said 100%.

The evolution of husbandry has been seeded in the experiences of the past. Evaluating past experiences and applying current strategies could better our methods. There is no fault in any of that. My problem with that is that there is nothing new in the strategy. Flippy revisited an old method and gave it birth as a new idea. I discredit this one idea because it is worthy of a discredit. I am not saying that flippy isn't capable of producing sound advice. I am saying that I don't agree with this segment of his publication.

My ways are no better than any others. My ways come from experience and are proven to work for me. In my environment, with my animals with my schedule. In my experiences, I have observed, first-hand, that tragedy of old ways with unexperienced keepers.

I include no bias in my advice to new keepers. I don't try to have them emulate my methods. I give them a general understanding on what to accomplish, and I let them create their own formulas to get there.

Maybe Flippy was trying to erase glass enclosures from the "Don't" list. This is acceptable.
For the winter months, I add plants and a humidifier in the room to raise the humidity of the entire room. Not all people have the luxury of dedicating an entire room to their chameleons and can't elevate the humidity of the entire living room for their purposes. Using a glass enclosure (done correctly) for the winter months (in this situation) is absolutely a tool that could be used to solve a problem. But, this isn't how the idea was explained.

I trust that most experienced keepers could use a glass enclosure and have no problems whatsoever.
I validate the claims of both E-Zine and Flippy to the fullest extent in this situation.

However, I know that the percentage of chameleon keepers are not professional nor experienced. Those same people, following the methods of experienced keepers, are implamenting methods without knowing what they are doing. Sure, all chameleon keepers should know everything about chameleons before they get into them, BUT, that isn't a reality.

This information was presented incorrectly.

I think it is dangerous and irresponsible.

I would make up a metaphore to elaborate, but I have been clear as I can be.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com

The only problem with saying people need to put some common sence with what they read is the fact that they dont. A person retains only I think it is 40% of what they read and they usualy dont study what they read so they skim over something only absorbing the main points. for example if I were to skim over an artical like that the main points I'd pick up would be...
glass is ok.
Glass keeps temp and humidity good.

Now I'm not saying that is what I do, I read everything and analize everything I can get about chameleons. BUT this is what the avarage joe would do and everyone knows it. This is why that artical is bad.
granted I have not read the whole thing or know if it says to keep them in screen when its not cold. or if it details the possibility of sickness from using glass. or if it says what is an approiate size glass cage.
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From Sunny Florida
Jovana's kids listed below
1.1 Veileds
1.0 Ambanja Panther
1.1 Tamatave Panther

We have said our points, voiced our views and shared our thoughts on this board,and i think it is time to lay it to rest.

Although we may have our difference in opinion, I think, hope we all can agree that the intent of the authors were good enough.

Some of us thought that they(the authors) should have been more elaborative or cautious when presenting information, and some us though the ywere reasonble enough. But at least by this debate, i hope that we were able to at least rub some information on would be keepers about glass enclosures.

I hope this was as stimulating for everyone as it was for us. It was for me at least. At the very least, i hope it was educational for prospective keepers. Anyway, Thanks for the freindly debate guys!

And rememebr kids...Keep your chameleons in glass enclosures!!.............JUST KIDDING!!! LOL

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