Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Before you buy another Hypo-Carrottail, you might want to check this out. I am primarily a Diplodactylinae and Gekkoninae enthusiast, however I came upon this "disturbing" website. My remaining leopard group consists of two normal leopards and one albino leopard gecko. I have in the past, bought and sold expensive "phases" of "leopard" gecko. Would some Eublepharine expert please validify or discredit this website. You are free to exploit my ignorance as well.
Much Thanks,
Ashton
Afghan Geckos

>>Before you buy another Hypo-Carrottail, you might want to check this out. I am primarily a Diplodactylinae and Gekkoninae enthusiast, however I came upon this "disturbing" website. My remaining leopard group consists of two normal leopards and one albino leopard gecko. I have in the past, bought and sold expensive "phases" of "leopard" gecko. Would some Eublepharine expert please validify or discredit this website. You are free to exploit my ignorance as well.
>>Much Thanks,
>>Ashton
>>Afghan Geckos

its impossible to breed and produce offspring of two entirely different species. so whatever is up with their scientific names would proove whatever I think your saying false.
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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

for example - I believe that Sandfire Dragon Ranch has successfully mated a Rhac crested with a sarasinorum producing a viable baby.

There are also many intergrade matings in pits, corns, etc, all producing viable offspring.

If my memory serves me correctly, Rick from Geckoland is working with a different Eublepharis species to bring some different characteristics into his line.e Correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said - I think this website is a mix of legit information with falsehoods posted on the home page. Indeed, this information on Afgan geckos has been on the internet for a long time, but I feel that they spliced in new pictures of a leucistic and a hypo tang to stir the pot.

There is no huge consipiracy using wild caught geckos and charging huge prices. You still have to work with refining colors/morphs. There is no shortcut.

Pretty cool subject, though. . . .
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

>>for example - I believe that Sandfire Dragon Ranch has successfully mated a Rhac crested with a sarasinorum producing a viable baby.
>>
>>There are also many intergrade matings in pits, corns, etc, all producing viable offspring.
>>
>>If my memory serves me correctly, Rick from Geckoland is working with a different Eublepharis species to bring some different characteristics into his line.e Correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>>That being said - I think this website is a mix of legit information with falsehoods posted on the home page. Indeed, this information on Afgan geckos has been on the internet for a long time, but I feel that they spliced in new pictures of a leucistic and a hypo tang to stir the pot.
>>
>>There is no huge consipiracy using wild caught geckos and charging huge prices. You still have to work with refining colors/morphs. There is no shortcut.
>>
>>Pretty cool subject, though. . . .
>>-----
>>Monte Meyer
>>Powergeckos
>>Email
>>
>>No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

if these were all different SPECIES would it be possible? They would have to have the same amount of chromosones correct? I HAVEN'T seen many things in this field, and ive never heard of different species producing offspring, thats cool and new news to me. I asked one of my environemtal science teachers this and that is what they told me. Heh I was being nosey about a RES and eastern painted he had together I saw the male scratching the others face, Ill have to prove him wrong.
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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

I have outbred my stock with wild caught leos as any responsible breeder should do from time to time but they are all Eublipharis Macularis subspecies. I have used E. M. Afganus from Afganistan (pre 9-11) and E. M. Montanus freom Pakistan. They are both more robust type specific Eublipharis Macularis that were introduced to stregnthen the bloodlines.
It would only be like breeding an Arizona Mt. King to a San Diego Mt. Kingsnake, not like breeding a kingsnake to a corn snake.
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Rick-Geckoland USA
My email

however usually very difficult in other reptiles

a carpondro is a cross between morelia viridis x moerlia spilota cheynei
borneo abt eaters is a cross between python reticulatus and python molurus bivittatus

borneo short tails and ball pythons have been bred and had offspring python reginus and python breitensteini

and also jungle carpets and diamond pythons ..... morelia spitola cheynei x morelia spitola spitola

and dont forget the numerous kingsnake x cornsake crosses and all the other colubnrid related hybrids
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

hybridization between species is absolutely possible. a liger is the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger. conversely, a tigon is the result of a mating between a male tiger and a female lion. and that's just a pretty well known example. however, not all species sharing a genus name can produce viable offspring. i'm really, really sure of this, i just graduated from reed with a BA in bio, so please trust me.
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

Those hybrids (lion an tiger crosses) are usually sterile and can't produce vavies later on.
This tends to happen to a few other hybrids too.

Im pretty sure someone has succesfully bred rhino vipers and gaboon vipers together, and they had viable offspring that have bred true. Im pretty sure these are two different species.

According to that webpage, those geckos are differenct SUBspecies, not different species. It is extremely difficult to get two different species to breed, but its not uncommon for subspecies to breed. Often different subspecies are just different localities. I think that is what that webpage is trying to claim. As for whether their info is correct I dont know. What Im curious about is...
They talk about their "collection sites" where they go in Pakistan to collect that particular subspecies. They also claim on the site that they dont sell anything they have. What are they stockpiling all the geckos for then?? Is it a scientific experiment/research project or something. They never really said on the page I dont think..

Joe

i think that several subspecies of e. macularius are quite commonly bred together unknowingly and perhaps in some cases knowingly to produce a certain trait. however even within a subspecies some populations will pop up and look different from the norm, for whatever reasons environment, diet even climate so some of the "morphs" could be because of this as well. i do not think to much documentaion has been done concerning what ssp was used to creat the morphs, and if their was i highly doubt the creators of these morphs will come out with it.
if you look at different leos and even different morphs you will see different characterists some long and slender, some long and massive and some just short and squatty... different head shapes and even different eye shapes. this is what leads me to believe alot of what is availible on the leo market arent true 100%e.macularius but rather a cross of the sub species (integrade)
i do not know if thedifferent species are being crossed or not, in alot of other reptiles and animals doing this is somethime rather hard and if done, produce infertile animals.
i do not know where the website you posted got its info but i have a link to a much more detailed webpage.
good discussion
Leopard geckos of the world

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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Okay, first off that was not my website. Secondly, how many resources are available on Eublepharis as a whole (I had not found one) compared to these disgusting mass-producers of Yellow and Orange geckos (should no longer be called leopards)? These phony herpers are sick, might as well breed fancy mice. I do not mean to come off as a madman. I need to remember the average leopard gecko lover does not know what happened/happens to there "hypo's" ancestors and other "undesirably" colored animals (they are often used as feeders, euphemized, or destroyed; wasted). See, I do know and have experience with selective breeding. Keep supporting that industry though. I was not down for the continuous slaughter (why I pulled out from it). The anatomical structures of CB leopard geckos goes to many distinguishable extremes, which gave rise to many previous questions of the interbreeding of Eublepharis spp.. I have finally found a good taxonomy based website on Eublepharis thanks to roi3in. Yeah, that's all I should have asked for... Back to the other geckos I go. I will get back to you on my Organic Gecko project (100% ALL-Natural geckos). Remember Leopard Gecko Kids, reptiles are not toys.
Thanks,
VERY disgruntled herper

even normal appearing geckos can be some sorta integrade. the only way to know you habe 100% unintergrated geckos, is to have them imported and then do a scale count and body comparison, and even when done by a non professiona; can be a difficult ask to do. i would suspect MOST CBB leos regardless of color or pattern are indeed integrades. a couple of friends and myself are trying to get some wild caught leos of different specoes AND subspecies but its not a real easy task and can take quite a bit of money and the knowledge of a good contact (one you can trust)
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

you can selectively breed any (most) trait... within a species or subspecies without having to integrade, however it may take ALOT of time and many generations
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Ha!!! I got one even more questionable for you, how do we even know they are E. macularis? I've recently been going through some of my file cabinets and came across some interesting articles, one of them detailing the differences of various species and subspecies of the genus Eublepharis. Last night this exact same topic peaked my interest and with papers in hand I went to look at some of my leos. What I found was interesting. It appears that most of my normal leos do not match the description of E. macularis, but instead they do match the description of a possible intergarde or even a different species. Perhaps this is just a drift in morphology due to captive breeding? Albino and gene carrying animals where also interesting to look at in the Rainwater and the Tremper lines. I'm still not sure what it all means and it is likely subspecies or even separate species have blood in the current captive gene pool. Early next year a decent sized shipment of WC leopard geckos should arrive collected from various areas in Pakistan and surrounds countries, I guess the few people who are able to get their hands on those animals will be able to bring more light to the situation at hand.

>>even normal appearing geckos can be some sorta integrade. the only way to know you habe 100% unintergrated geckos, is to have them imported and then do a scale count and body comparison, and even when done by a non professiona; can be a difficult ask to do. i would suspect MOST CBB leos regardless of color or pattern are indeed integrades. a couple of friends and myself are trying to get some wild caught leos of different specoes AND subspecies but its not a real easy task and can take quite a bit of money and the knowledge of a good contact (one you can trust)
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>>-robin struck
>> Geckoheads And Geeks
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Justyn Miller
Intense Herpetoculture

I'm not exactly sure how to take your comments. If someone out there is indeed destroying healthy leopard geckos (or any animal) because it doesn’t meet their standard, they should be reported to the authorities. I have heard of this practice in the dog breeding world, but had never heard of anyone destroying happy healthy geckos simply because of a colour or pattern.

From a business stand point it would make no sense to destroy a healthy leopard gecko that could easily go to a pet shop for a profit.

Many animals are selectively bred for different traits, take the dog, Rover has been selectively bred for hundreds of years. Gold fish have been selectively bred and intergraded are they no longer gold fish?

Does an intergraded leopard gecko make any less of a pet then a pure 100% Eublepharis macularius?

I just don't see what the point of your post is, people pay a premium for something because they like it. Bottom line if you don't like fancy leopard geckos, don't buy them. But why would you come onto a public forum and state that they should no longer be called leopard geckos, and call the people who breed them for fun and profit "Sick herpers?" Look around your house; is there nothing there that has been selectively bred? Do you own a dog? How about a cat? Any fish in your house?

I'm not looking to get into an argument here and the above is just my opinion.

Matt.

insofar as i was aware, leopard geckoes that weren't displaying characteristics that were desirable to breed, or have associated with the breeder's name, are often sold to local pet stores or distributors in bulk. and i hardly find selective breeding to be perverse, since it's present in EVERY domesticated species (dogs, cats, birds, horses, fish, etc.). what i (personally) find perverse is the inbreeding that some breeders use to get their colors. i, personally, don't think siblings and other close relatives should be bred, but i know many other people feel differently.

on a side note: i'm not familiar with the term 'intergrade mating.' i assumed it meant mating between geckoes that were viewed as being of different quality (e.g., high and low). but people here are using it as though it means either inter-species or inter-subspecies mating. is this a scientific term? thanks .
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

that website said that those were all species, when they are subspecies. subspecies can breed and possible produce offspring. for example reptile species found in different regions of the us may not look exactly the same, but can reproduce. what breeder try to do in this hobby though, is to localize a specific gene say they have a gecko with a spot on its nose, and find another with a spot on its nose, and breed them, if this spot on their nose is a trait then maybe some of the babies will have a spot on their nose. humans are the same way. Its all in the genes
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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

the scientific names are correct......... they are a species of eublepharis a subspecies would some eublepharis macularius fasciolatus, e.m.montanus and e.m. afghanicus. the only incorrect info i see is where it states "e. afghanicus" afghanicus is a subspecies of e. macularius...... and the general use of e.macularious as a species is kinda weird because macularius contains three subspecies that i know of shoot possibly more
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

look like nice healthy captive or captive bred leos, except the leo on the left the "hypo" looks like it has a slightly skinny tail
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

>>the scientific names are correct......... they are a species of eublepharis a subspecies would some eublepharis macularius fasciolatus, e.m.montanus and e.m. afghanicus. the only incorrect info i see is where it states "e. afghanicus" afghanicus is a subspecies of e. macularius...... and the general use of e.macularious as a species is kinda weird because macularius contains three subspecies that i know of shoot possibly more
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>>-robin struck
>> Geckoheads And Geeks

so wait, im confused, the site you gave said that those names were sub species where as the site that the first person gave were species, whose right? ggrrrr
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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

eublepharis is the family

macularius,hardwickii,turkmenicus and angramainya are spcies

if for inctance in the eublepharis macularius species their consist of afghanicus,fasciolatus and montanus which are sub species of the macularius species
leopard geckos of the world

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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

the eublepharids are a family (can't remember the latin, i think it's eublepharidae). but eublepharis is also the genus name for some of the family members (like leos).
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

this is a good discussion thanks again
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Eublepharidae is the family. It includes most of the eye lid geckos such as fat tails and the banded geckos of north america as well as leopard geckos etc.
-Alice

i got going so fast i forgot my basic biology =o)
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

>>>Before you buy another Hypo-Carrottail, you might want to check this out. I am primarily a Diplodactylinae and Gekkoninae enthusiast, however I came upon this "disturbing" website. My remaining leopard group consists of two normal leopards and one albino leopard gecko. I have in the past, bought and sold expensive "phases" of "leopard" gecko. Would some Eublepharine expert please validify or discredit this website. You are free to exploit my ignorance as well.

Wait, im confused. Is it your website? If so, why are you saying its 'disturbing'?

Sorry if this has nothing to do with your post.

You might want to try emailing Albey, as hes working with different subspecies (E. M. Fasciolatus....totally spelled wrong, i know).

M.N

The info is not correct, but there are different subspecies of leopard gecko. The pics on that website are not the typical wild-caught specimens; they are captive selective bred and genetic mutations. The website Robin posted seems to have some great info on the wild subspecies and I agree with someone who says that our leos are probably hybrids of different subspecies. I believe some of the subspecies even overlap in the wild, but it's been a while since I read my Gecko Fauna of the USSR book, so can't be sure. I'm sure it would take a biologist to figure out what we've got in our collections, or at least a biology student/hobbyist who can do the scale counts, etc. Most of the scientific/taxonomic info available on Eublepharis from the wild is pretty old, so who knows what they're like nowadays. I hope to get over to Afghanistan in the future and if so, I'll try to do some searching in my spare time.

Robin, If you can't get some subspecies imported from the wild, look into the Japanese market. When I was over there, I used to see some advertised on websites over there. Otherwise, I believe Glades Herp imported some Montanicus or others within the past few years. (once again, I'm relying on my memory, may not be 100% accurate)

One thing that we can start discussing is how true HCT and SHCT leos from Ray Hine are dominant/co-dominant traits, so anyone can create them in the first breeding. (What's the diff. between dom and co-dom, anyway?)
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Rob Jenkins
Have you seen the GeckoCam?
Buy Geckos Here
Email Me

yay! i can answer that one! in a classic Mendelian gentic situation (menaing, idealized), the difference between a dominant/recessive trait and a codominant trait is as follows:

okay, so, if it's a dominant/recessive trait (again, in a classic situation), then there are two possible phenotypes (ways that the animal can look), and three possible genotypes (genes that that animal can have to make it look that way). so, let's just say the trait is albinism (Tremper, Rainwater, whatever, so long as it follows the Mendelian model). so, an animal that has an AA genotype isn't albino. And animal that has an aa genotype is albino. and here's the dominant/recessive part: if it's got Aa genes, the non-albino genes are dominant, and the animal is not an albino, and doesn't look (externally) any different from the AA animal.

so, if it's a co-dominant trait, there are three possible phenotypes. i don't know which traits with leos are codom, so i'll pretend there's another kind of albino (i'll call it the 'marla' albino- hehe), that is co-dominant. so, if the animal has MM genes, it's not an albino. if it has mm genes, it's a marla albino. and if it has Mm genes, the two traits are mixed. i think there are technically two different terms for how they can be mixed. but one way is for the animal to be like a checkerboard, one square albino, one not (get it?). the other way (which i think is what codominant usually means), is for the two traits to be evenly blended together. so an Mm genotype would i guess be sort of salmon-colored. i hope that helped!
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

np

By your description, then, I think the Hypo in Ray Hine Carrot Tails is co-dom. If you breed a HCT or SHCT from his lines, you can expect 50% or better Hypo or Super Hypo.
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Rob Jenkins
Have you seen the GeckoCam?
Buy Geckos Here
Email Me