Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is a pic of the little hypo I found at petco.

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Well, I thought it was a hypo because is has no black, and if it is a paternless, is it going to lose it's spots? Because it certainly looks like it has a pattern to me.

-Jeremy McManmon-

>>>>Well, I thought it was a hypo because is has no black, and if it is a paternless, is it going to lose it's spots? Because it certainly looks like it has a pattern to me.

Lol,

Well, albinos and blizzards dont either. That doesnt mean their hypo.

Also, yes. In fact it will lose all the spots as it ages.
How much did you pay for it?

M.N

Alright first of all I was just asking a simple question so there is no need to laugh and be an ass. Anyways it was only $20. Do you often act like Mr. high and mighty know it all when someone asks for an explanation? If that was not your intention that is how I interpreted it and I'm sorry but if it was then screw you.

there is also no reason to call someone an "Ass" that just shows immaturity, it is a patternless...it also looks like it was underfed make sure you have all the right things and right foods for it and heating he also answerd your question.he wasnt being an "ass" and he also wasnt acting like "mr high and mighty

>>>Do you often act like Mr. high and mighty know it all when someone asks for an explanation?

..What? May i ask what the 'asking for an explanation' was? You posted a pic of a so-called hypo, and i corrected you saying it was a patternless. I dont see a question...Do you often act like this when someone expalins this to you?

Anyway, yes it wasnt my intention, therefore you misinterpreted it.

BTW get it off the sand, and do some research.

M.N

I did not know that the patternless were born with any markings. This is why I asked you if they lose their spots or not. That is the explination I was looking for. Sorry to sound like a dick but I thought you were trying to act all special like some people in here do so ALL the time. I apologize that was my bad. No hard feelings?

patternless are born with a pattern- just like your little fellow has. isn't that weird? it will fade pretty fast, though.
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

Thats wild, I always thought they were born "naked." Just wondering, but how much do patternless babies usually go for? How long does it take for the spots to dissapear?

Thanks a lot,

Jeremy McManmon

Most patternless hatchlings go for around $20-$40.
Adults can be anywhere from $40-$80 or even more.

I believe petco gets their leopard geckos from a company named Gourmet Rodents. At my local petco, they have gotten leopard gecko hatchling groups that included normals, patternless, and albinos in their recent shipments.
Good luck with your new leo, it should be fun for your to watch him/her grow up.

Thanks a lot it will be fun. The Petco got him/her from had the same thing in their shipment normal, albino and I guess paternless. Also yes they do get their leos from gourmet rodent. Do paternless ususlly get orange on their tails? When I look closely my leo is starting to get some orange. I have never seen a paternless with that before. Is this a common thing, will he get more or will it go away?

Thanks,

Jeremy

what is the gecko on? its a baby..babys should be on nothing but paper towels

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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

It is calci sand and yes I know he should be on paper towels but him and the others I have are doing just fine including the one that I have had for 1 1/2 years. The female I have was kept on it as well when she was a baby and the breeder was the one who kept her on it and she is doing great. I have never had any problems before and dont expect to in the future, not to say that it cant happen. Also if you read my post you saw that I said, that is how I interpreted what he said and that if I was mistaken I am sorry. Maybe if he wouldnt have started of his answere with LOL then maybe I wouldn't have taken it that way. Oh yeah most people that are immature usually dont offer an apology if they were wrong which I did when I said if that is not how he meant it then I am sorry.

Sometimes chronic impactions form over more than just a few years. Plus, calci sand is worse than normal sand. The grains are bigger, the grains will sort of melt together in the stomach, and the animals like the taste of it.

I don't understand why someone would risk the welfare of their animal if they don't have to. If you are going to continue using it, make sure the geckos don't eat any food directly off of it, and if you see them lick it or anything take them off of it.

i thought the whole idea behind it was that it was more digestable, and that was what the calcium was for, since they tend to lick the substrate anyway? i'm just curious, my geckoes are kept on paper towel these days anyway...
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

it isn't, plain and simple. I mean, your lizard can live on it all it's life and never have impaction problems, but there is an increased risk, meaning it does happen (and a lot more so with the calcium sand). The idea behind it is brilliant, but they obviously didn't research it enough as people have tested calcium sands in acid to see how they break down, and in the most acidic substance (much more acidic than a reptile's stomach) it only broke up around 30% of it. I think at the actual PH level of a lizard's stomach it only broke up between 5-10%. Even with normal sand, though they can't digest it, they can pass most of it and if they aren't eating it constantly they won't get enough into their system to cause problems. Babies are different, and should really never be kept on a particulate substrate. But with the combination of large grains and a taste reptiles like, calcium sand should just never be used.

I don't have a leopard gecko yet, but I've done enough research on them (and on my bearded dragon) to know that using any type of sand is a risk. I do use playsand with my bearded dragon, but I've only seen him lick it once, and that was right when I put him on it. If I put him on calcium sand again (he was on it for about two weeks when I first got him and didn't know better), I think he would probably ingest it regularly (which is why I took him off of it in the first place). When I get my leopard gecko, I'm going to be strict on the paper towel/newspaper/repticarpet thing, at least for the first few years. Maybe eventually I'll put it on sifted playsand, but I don't want to take any risks with it being young. I also don't plan on feeding mine directly off of the substrate. I think I'll probably use a small, cut down tupperware bowl for mealworms and crickets (with the hind legs pinched). I don't even feed my beardie in his regular enclosure.

long rant, but I don't like seeing people take unnecessary risks.

Thanks for the concern. I have been thinking of putting him/her on repti-carpet and will probably do that today. I always thought that the finer grains impact easier. I know this lady who had her baby on repti-sand or vita-sand or something like that and her leo got impacted really bad and the insides came out. She gave it to me to see what the problem was and I put it on paper towels for about two weeks and the insides went back in. After the leo started eating and functioning again I put it on calci-sand since its thicker and the leo has never had a problem since and it is doing great. I do appriciate all info and concern though. I am by no means an expert, my main interest is venomous snakes so I will try to take the advice of more of the people on here since most of them have more experience and know more about these little guys than myslef.

Thankn,

Jeremy

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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

Yeah it was pretty gross but somehow the little guy pulled through. I thought it was hopeless then magically his intestines or what ever came out went back in and he made a full recovery

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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

i think they mean it's an age thing. that's what i gather- small baby geckoes have more problems with sand than adults. i didn't know that when i first started out either, but i guess better safe than sorry. plus some people just really swear by paper towel, and some swear by sand- it's a neverending debate.
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marla
keeper of: axolotls, catfish, ferrets, leopard geckoes, oriental fire-bellied toads, and sugar gliders

Hi

Well you could also look at it this way, break the word down - calci =would be the calcium in it, but the other part - sand = so there is sand mixed in with it, thus calci-sand. That is my opinion on it.

One more thing, my vet. also told me to keep my geckos on newspapers and papertowels, young and old.

Take Care, TLB

Just remember that these products that are made for reptiles and are ADVERTISED to be safe for reptiles. However, also keep in mind that there is no council governing what can be put on the market, that I know of. So what can you trust? I bought my first leo from a reputable reptile keeper. Told me to keep it on reptiblend which was advertised to be safe to ingest and digest. 3 months later and a 200 dollar vet bill and the poor thing is dead from impaction. You're the only one who can make the decisions for the animal, make sure you take NO CHANCES!
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1.2 Leopard Geckos, 1.1 Crested Geckos, 0.0.1 Green Tree Frog, 0.0.1 Northern Spring Peeper, 0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad, 0.0.3 Red-Backed Salamanders, 0.0.1 Northern Leopard Frog, 0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt (Water Eft), 0.0.1 Bull Frog Tadpole, 38 gal Reef Tank

.. how do babies survive in nature? Im sure there is a lot of sand in Pakistan where they are from. I have had 2 babies die from impaction a long time ago and these days I dont keep my babies on any particle based substrate. I agree that there is no reason to take a risk with your babies if you dont have to.
Its like saying.. "Ive never quarantine my new animals and Ive never had any problems with disease."
But basically, Ive always wondered how the little guys survive in the wild. Maybe many babies do die from impaction but the majority survive. Anyone else wondered around this.
By the way.. Im not trying to start another debate about the natural terrain of leopard geckos and whether it is sand or rocks or trees or whatever. No one here can convince me that there is no sand in Pakistan. hehe

Joe

I wondered the same thing also. The thing is however we cannot replicate nature completely so we improvise. Thus it is safe on paper towels, nothing to impact the little guys. I have a baby uromastyx that i keep on paper towels just in case of any problems. The uromastyx fourm swears that you should treat the baby as you would the adults and put it on a topsoil/perlite or vermiculate/sand mix. I use that for my adults, BUT we have no way to TRUELY replicate nature. I am sure babies die all the time out there. I have never seen any scientific proof that has been done on babies in the wild, so i stick with the safety. i mean YES the babies are on soem kind of loose substrate weather it be sand, dirt, or some other type substrate...but until someone has done some research how are we supposed to house these guys properly? I was going to bring this up in the uromastyx fourm since i was given a bunch of opposing viewpoitns on the substrate for baby uros...mine is doign great on paper towels and will switch to dirt when he is 6 " . As for leos i keep all of mine on repti carpet/paper towels, after hearing all your stories of impaction. At least uromastyx are from africa where it is more sandy and loose, unlike th

In nature....to simply maintain the population all that has to happen is TWO babies produced by the parental pair have to survive to reproductive age and reproduce 2 babies again(not two each, two for the two) ....ALL the other babies DIE before they reproduce. That is in the entire life of the gex not just a season and just to maintain the population at a even level. These are not great numbers.....think about it.
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Sonya

I'm sure they wouldn't be dying from impactions. After so many years of evolution, it doesn't make sense that leopard geckos would live in environmental conditions that were hazardous to its young. Nature selects the animals that are most fit to thrive in an environment or have certain defenses to aid in survival--not just with predators and natural disasters but the actual physical environment itself. If leopard geckos were meant to live in the type of sand they can swim in (like what people put in their tanks), they would have some kind of way of dealing with impactions.
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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

they would probaby have evolved to have feet more suited for walking in sand rather than climbing through rocks/sticks.
Take a look at the web footed gecko, they have evolved to walk through sand.

my $0.03
(Because of the exchange rate lol)
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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

IMO, the feet isnt the best identication to look for in desert geckos. Just look at Stenodactylus feet (same as leos), and they have to be on sand.

M.N

There are some good points coming up about loose sand.

If you take a walk out in the desert, I think you'll notice there isn't the loose sand that people have in their tanks. The desert floor is hard and compacted. Years of rain/wind/whatever else have removed the loose sand and compacted the rest. That's why you get sand dunes in the deserts (the loose sand has to build up somewhere when it's windy). My theory is that since most desert land has a compacted floor, that's likely where you'd find leos in the wild.

I agree that there has to be some sand in Pakistan, but the leos likely don't spend much time on the loose areas of it. That was a good point about the feet in the previous post too.

As for the sand/paper towel debate, I wonder if the two sides will ever agree to disagree...

(Papertowels/slate are my choice)
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Blaine

0.0.1 HY/Patternless/Normal Leo (Echo)

Thanks for all the replies people! Like I said, Im not trying to start a debate or anything, its just something Ive always wondered about. I agree that lots of babies in the wild probably die before ever reaching maturity. Obviously there are predators and parasites and all of that in the wild that will drastically reduce the survival rate of these lizards. I just wondered if impaction was another factor. Since many people claim they have kept leos on sand for years with no impactions, obviously it's possible for a baby leo to survive on even the worst, most unnatural sand we can make. So maybe babies do die in nature of impaction, but since the sand is more natural it is an even smaller percentage. Say less than 10% or so. I dont know, I wonder if any significant research has been done in this field. Thanks again for all the ideas.

Joe