Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got my Russian, Molly a little over a week ago and have decided that I don't want to hibernate her this year...

Specially since I just found out she has worms and I was told it's not good to hibernate them when they aren't perfectly healthy.

Also... I am really just worried about the whole process.

What would happen if I didn't hibernate her this year but tried to next year after I've had her for a while?

What would happen if I never hibernated her? The man that sold her to me told me I didn't have to do it, but I've heard mixed reviews on this...

Yes its ok to not hibernate it.

Hibernation is not recommended the first year or if the trort has parasites.

And I don't recomend it at all unless you are sure of what you are doing.
hibernation

Unless you are thinking of setting the animal up for breeding I don't see any reason to hibernate any turtle or tortoise. Now keep in mind that a WC animal is sometimes 'programed'(as in the habit of) to hibernate and if it sees/feels the ques that trigger the behavior it will most likely try to hibernate. I've had better success with russians but not letting them hibernate than letting them hibernate. I think I'm on year 3 and my 3rd winter. The first winter was a disaster for me.
Ed
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

My husband says just say no to breeding her... I pretty much agree. I think I'll stick to just the one as lovely as she is. The next baby made in our house will probably be human.

I'll be honest with you, I "assumed" she was captive bred when I got her, but I have a feeling she was wild caught.

She spends most of her day burried under the reptibark in her enclosure until I come home and feed her, then she is up "racing" around the living room. (Guinea pig cage right now but will be upgrading her to a 50 gallon long Rubbermaid tomorrow) Does that mean she wants to hibernate, or do they just dig anyway?

As a rule they are secretive but when they are warm they are rareing to go for the most part.
They do like to bury down if it is too cool or too hot. When it is just right (80 to 90 or so) they are maniacs and fun to watch.
Ed
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Interesting "rule"

Mine as a "rule" are outgoing and active with long "cat naps" in mid day

Russians breed nicely without hibernation.

What disasters did you have?

It's fine not to hibernate her this year, but I definitely would next year. Russians need to hibernate for their health and will deteriorate over time if they are not allowed to do so.

Many people don't know this, but parasites are usually not that big a deal when it comes to hibernation. Think about wild tortoises, most of which carry parasites yet hibernate perfectly well year after year. Bacterial infections or viruses are another story, and are very dangerous if you hibernate an animal with them. Parasites like hookworms will often either die or go dormant themselves during hibernation. Of course, if the animal is so badly infested that it's health is affected, you don't want to let it hibernate until it has been successfully treated.

Posted by: tortoisehead at Tue Dec 2 22:29:54 2003
"It's fine not to hibernate her this year, but I definitely would next year. Russians need to hibernate for their health and will deteriorate over time if they are not allowed to do so."

You know this to be true...that russians will deteriorate if not hibernated. You know more than those that have been working with turtles and tortoises all their life and have even done field research. I'd like some documentation because I don't hibernate mine and have had them for nearly 10 years and successfully bred them. Always eager to learn and know that I am doing the wrong thing, but hibernation is a debated topic either way and I am not aware of anything as conclusive as your comments. If there is conclusive proof for your comments I'd like to see it.

Hibernation kills many in captive situations when not done properly. Parasites can contribute to death. In the wild, tortoises do perish during hibernation...

I don't know what "field research" you have done, but I do know that if you look up hibernation on the internet or read books on reptiles, and if you talk to longtime tortoise keepers (which I have done many times,) you will find the vast majority of opinions on hibernation is that it is necessary for long-term health. Highgfield is a world-known tortoise expert who has studied these animals for decades. He says he has found that they do indeed develope health problems if they are not allowed to hibernate for a few years. He and plenty of other experts will site liver and thyroid damage, immune system suppression, and of course reproduction difficulties. These conditions may take years to develope, but they usually do eventually. Where do these beliefs come from? I doubt it is all just made up. What reason would someone have to make it up? I'm sure there are people who will say their tortoises are doing just fine without hibernation, but what we are talking about here is the preponderance of evidence and it seems to point to a true biological need for hibernation.

The fact that some tortoises die in hibernation is irrelevant to whether it is necessary for them or not. Women die during childbirth. People choke to death on food. Does this mean those things are not necessary? Just because some people don't know how to hibernate their animals properly does not mean everyone should just skip it out of fear. Knowledge is not that hard to come by concerning this subject, even though it is controversial.

You talk about "scientific proof." That is hard to come by on this subject because of the length of time it takes for health proplems to manifest themselves. We mainly have anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. But we have a LOT of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence and that can be very, very telling. Do you believe that smoking greatly increases your chances of getting lung cancer? Did you know that the evidence for that is only anecdotal and circumstantial? There is really no absolute "scientific proof" that cigarettes cause lung cancer; or that obesity will cause heart problems, for that matter. Yet both of these beliefs are accepted by any reasonable person. It is all just looking at the backgroud of people who get those disease and making the connection. Just like with tortoises and hibernation.

I don't know the circles you travel in but the majority of chelonian keepers I know believe that it is not a necessity but an adaptation.
Once again, the people who cite health issues resulting from not hibernating an animal are giving their opinion based on their limited experience because when asked to cite some references they invariably answer that 'they know'.
Then you have to wonder about those that keep turtles and tortoises in the southern states. They are pretty much the proof that it is not a requirement. The animals breed and live long healthy lives without hibernation.
So, why would someone make this up? Maybe to validate their point of view.
Either way, you're entitled to your opinion. (even if it is wrong)
Ed
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think the only people you have talked with about tortoises are the guys who import them in large numbers and sell the survivors after killing about half of them with horrible treatment where they are literally piled on top of each other for weeks. These guys know very little about how to actually keep them and care for them.

I can only conclude from the derogatory things you said about the pro-hibernation crowd that you have absolute scientific proof that reptiles don't ever need to hibernate. Care to share it with us? Spare me the song-and-dance routine, just post your proof.

While I do know a good number of dealers, the people I refer to are very well respected keepers, collectors and breeders.
Please refresh my memory as to the derogatory remarks I passed out (those to you don't really count).
What kind of 'proof' would you accept? (talk about asking for it) I suspect whatever evidence I provide you will not give just out of arguments sake.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You said that I was "wrong" about hibernation instead of simply saying that you disagreed. You said that people who think hibernation was necessary had "limited experience" and that they could never cite references to back up their claims. I think that falls under the heading of "derogatory." I have found all of your conclusions to be totally false in my experience. Some of the most respected tortoise keepers in the world agree with what I have said and they have far more experience with these animals than you or I.

What kind of proof would I accept? You agreed with the guy who said that scientific proof was essential that showed hibernation was necessary for a tortoise's health. I ask the same from you showing it isn't. That's all. After all, you and your ilk are the ones going AGAINST nature and saying there is no problem doing that. You say tortoises should eat man-made soybean products. You say temperate climate tortoises don't have to hibernate. You most likely believe that indoor lighting is just as good as sunlight. You have stated that no one knows what a tortoise's nutritional requirements are. All these things go against common sense and most peoples' experience. Some of them go against nature. The burden of proof should lie with you.

Where did I say this...

You said that people who think hibernation was necessary had "limited experience" and that they could never cite references to back up their claims.

I probably did say the last part and that is true.
Why should the burden of proof lie with my point of view? There is one reference that most seem to cite and that is out of Highfields book and he even states that it is his opinion.

To add a little more credibility to your statement, how much experience do you have as a collector?

As to the proof of my comment on hibernation... I believe I've already offered it and I'll repeat it in case you missed it.
2 species of chelonians come directly to mind. Both the Red Eared Slider and the greek tortoise do not hibernate where the climate allows them to be active throughout the year. I think that also falls under the umbrella of common sense.

Once again you misquoted me on the soy based product. I did not say it should be fed to your tortoise. I'll get back to you on the rest of this one.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care