Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's good to know that some other rock keepers are outhere as well. Although i keep mostly burms and retics, i have a special place in my heart for rock pythons, it's just too bad that mine don't care much for a good meal.
How big are yours? If they are breeders they can't be too small, right? How about some photos?(does not have to be on the BMW, heheheh!) Take care.

Oh yes, I love the rocks. It's always a treat for me when I reach their cages during cleaning or bowl washing or whatnot. With the retics and burms it is usually that I am met with indifference or a request for food. But the rocks always rush forward to identify me and then will often posture real big and "scary" and sometimes hissing loud.

They often identify me by sight, which I find particularly interesting as boas and other python species usually must have a direct smell with their tongues before they "know it's me". But with the rocks I can see a slight change in their body language when they recognize me and determine that I am not a potential preditor. There is a slight turn or tilt of their head and their body relaxes somewhat. I still give them a smell of my hand before taking them out though.

What they may think I am is beyond me, but some of them actually seem to enjoy being taken out and held. Others, that I got as yearlings and were never held by the previous breeder/broker are awkward and stiff and not liking it at all. I try to hold them as little as possible out of respect of their dislike for it. But I frequently hold the individuals that seem to like being taken out. They immediately cease all of the "I'm a scary snake" posturing and genuinely seem to enjoy being held.

But the moment I put them back, even before all of he or she is out of my hands, they often turn around to face me and begin the loud and pugnacious posturing. I actually like this and think nothing of it as I understand it to be all bluff, but just to err on the side of safety I still remain out of range.

This is part of the seemingly aggressive behavior that I think is often misunderstood by many keepers. For someone used to boas or burmese and other species this behavior would seem like nothing short of schizophrenic and psychotic. When you put a burmese back they usually just return calmly and coil up or simply try to get back out. But the rocks often immediately come back and confront you. I personally think that this is a deeply ingrained instinct, instilled by evolving for eons on a continent home to the planets largest land giants and preditors. To not be noisy and frightening undoubtedly meant sure death by predation or trampling. Those that were boisterous and intimidating were certainly more likely to survive to pass on the very genes that made them so confrontational. So I personally think that this is just something that is part of the rock python species and will be with them and in them for a long time to come.

As the most intelligent organism on the planet (disputed by the Dolphins, lol) it is our duty to understand this and to simply shape our caregiving/keeping of them accordingly. This is what most herpers fail to realize. I have noticed that many people expect every python to be like a burmese and when it isn't, rather than learn about it and understand it, they get rid of it. Personally, I feel that it is just as easy to care for and keep a rock python once you understand this seemingly strange, confrontational behavior, as it is to keep a burmese or retic. Maybe even easier than retics since retics have even more harder to cope with habits of being so asertive in doing what they want to do at all times. I find this much more troublesome than a noisy rock staring me down.

Anyways,.. sorry for the long post. This subject is difficult to sum up in 20 words or less. I'll post some pictures soon for you. But none of my rocks are "normal" rock pythons, just so you know. They are either patternless green rocks, partially broadbanded patternless green rocks, or rock/burmese hybrids. (For the record, my rock/burmese hybrids do not exhibit the typical rock, confrontational behavior) The average sizes of my rocks or rock hybrids are between 9 and 13 feet. The largest male is about 11 1/2 feet. The largest female is roughly 13 feet. All of my current rocks are about 2 1/2 years old and this is their first season breeding. They will all undoubtedly grow much more as they age and grow older.

>>It's good to know that some other rock keepers are outhere as well. Although i keep mostly burms and retics, i have a special place in my heart for rock pythons, it's just too bad that mine don't care much for a good meal.
>>How big are yours? If they are breeders they can't be too small, right? How about some photos?(does not have to be on the BMW, heheheh!) Take care.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Damn, i'm enjoying this "conversation", aren't you? It's refreshing after so many burm posts...So let's go on with our rock-talk before it's considered off topic or something. (Just for the record, i think this should be called the Indian python forum. By calling it the Burmese python forum it means that Molurus Mulurus or Pimbura are just as outsiders as any other python, but an "Indian python forum" would include all subspecies).
Well, you shouldn't focus to much on the animal-location thing when trying to figure character and personality about that given animal, because Africa (in this case) his home to many other snakes and still they are all diferent. Ball pythons don't seem to be on the look out all the time like rocks. Retics live among burms in Asia, so how to explain such oposite behaviours?!(just my ideas, they don't have to be more valid than anyone else's)
I also find curious how rocks seem to see so well. Whenever i open the cage the turn around and rush for the door. Those little critters are smart...

Yeah, me too. It is a refreshing change from the norm. Not to imply that burm talk is in any way boring, it just tends to be the same things over and over.

You brought up a few really good points here. You're right, it technically should be the indian python forum with all sub species included. Obviously the forum name is based on the sheer number of pet burms kept in captivity and the volume of burm owners that would need to post. I personally think that to this day a large portion of burm owners are probably still unaware that indian pythons are even related to burms, or don't even know of it's existence. By this I am not referring to the dedicated herpers that have a genuine desire to learn all they can about these animals and that take their hobby seriously. In this I refer to the large percentage of people that buy a burm in a pet shop because it is neat, or cute, or may get big and will impress their friends. In my opinion these people rarely take the time to really learn about the animal or it's origins. Sad but true, and while there are pet shops and money oriented, thoughtless breeders, this is an inevitability.

The thing that P****es me off the most is when breeders cross breed the indian python with the burm so that they have a legal loophole that enables them to ship the animals over state lines. This is utterly irresponsible in my opinion as the indian pythons are so rare and are seriously threatened with extinction in the wild. With this reckless practice in a few years who can really say which indians are pure and which or not. If the only remaining gene pool is in captivity then it is our responsibility to ensure that it is untainted and kept pure. I am not usually one for more laws of any kind, but I do wish they would pass a law making it illegal to crossbreed an endangered species.

Another good point you brought up is concerning the evolution of rocks and other reptiles on the same continent that clearly demonstrate different defense mechanisms. While I agree that no two animals evolve the same way, I still stand by my theory on the rock pythons and why they are so confrontational. And here's why: It is in the fact that no two animals evolve the same way that it is entirely likely. Depending on the regions and the habitats and many other factors, animals have evolved a wide array of defense mechanisms over the eons. And different behaviors can be found in the same area or habitat too. Some may evolve to flee quickly, others may have evolved to stand and fight, while others may have evolved a hard outer shell, or spikes, or even toxins that they may emit, ooze or spit. Some animals evolved smaller and smaller so as to avoid predation (like the ball, which curls into a tight ball to become even smaller), and others evolved great size to avoid predation. And some evolve elaborate camouflage to better blend in and disappear into their background. Whatever the case, it all has obviously worked incredibly well otherwise all these species would long be dead. But it is because of this wide array of different methods of evolving to cope with the environment that lends more merrit to the idea that this is exactly why rock pythons behave this way. Because it has worked.

I too find it very interesting that rocks have such great eyesight. A lot of snake species from africa also seem to share this physical attribute. Mambas, boomslangs, cobras, etc. In addition to this they are all very agile snakes with very acute vision and seemingly higher than usual snake intelligence. I personally think that the reason for this (evolutionarily speaking) is that having evolved in a much more open and sparse land these species and species like them have had to evolve more of a preditory method of obtaining food, rather than the usual method of choice for large snakes, "lay and wait and ambush".

The most amazing behavior regarding subduing prey that I have ever witnessed in my life involves rock pythons. This from back in the early 80's when I would put live food items in the snake's cages. (These days I always feed pre-killed and so it's a very controlled environment and there isn't oportunity to witness something different or rare). But in those days I often placed several bunnies or guinea pigs in with the rock pythons and they often did the most amazing thing. They would grab one with their mouth and constrict it in a regular manner and then feel about with their tail and locate another animal and grab and constrict it with their tail and lower body. It was just incredible to me for this snake to be aware of other animals in the cage as it was seemingly preoccupied killing another. Now, most other snakes are lost in the single minded objective of subduing the prey in their mouth. The rocks on the other hand would often seem to remember the presence of additional animals and would find and kill them with their tail.

Keep the rock talk flowing,. I'm digging on it in a big way.

>>Damn, i'm enjoying this "conversation", aren't you? It's refreshing after so many burm posts...So let's go on with our rock-talk before it's considered off topic or something. (Just for the record, i think this should be called the Indian python forum. By calling it the Burmese python forum it means that Molurus Mulurus or Pimbura are just as outsiders as any other python, but an "Indian python forum" would include all subspecies).
>>Well, you shouldn't focus to much on the animal-location thing when trying to figure character and personality about that given animal, because Africa (in this case) his home to many other snakes and still they are all diferent. Ball pythons don't seem to be on the look out all the time like rocks. Retics live among burms in Asia, so how to explain such oposite behaviours?!(just my ideas, they don't have to be more valid than anyone else's)
>> I also find curious how rocks seem to see so well. Whenever i open the cage the turn around and rush for the door. Those little critters are smart...
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Rock talk: a friend of mine who has been working with snakes for many years had(still has, i believe) a medium to big rock, about 13 feet or so, and a much bigger retic(maybe close to 19'). He got them in the same cage one day and guess what happened? the rock python wrapped the retic hard breaking it's spine and killing her. The poor retic stood no chance. Do you sense any territory protection from rocks when another species is introduced in the cage?
Another thing: the indian/burm hybrids. Let's just say that i'm on your side there, but it's a tricky issue and i rather keep out. You are right to say that we don't have the right to mess with a species genetic purity, but since we ain't gods and can't account for any divine intentions, we also have no right to protect such purity. Often we speak of animals as outsiders and forget that Homo Sapiens is an animal species as well...get the point!?? abruptly it brings a new light into the subject, a scary one, right? What would you call someone who believes that the different human localities should be keept pure and never crossbreed? A new Hitler, perhaps...
So i just keep out of that tricky subject.
Anyway, keep on with the rock talk...

Oh yes, I am very familiar with the rock territoriality traits. One of my large males is very territorial and will even wrap on and try to kill a female if she is not ready to be bred yet (giving off a mature, receptive scent), so I have to be very careful with him when attempting to breed. I have also had in the past two male retics fight and the smaller of the two almost killed the larger one. The smaller one was maybe 13 feet and the other was a very huge male about 18 feet or so that I'm ashamed to say was purchased from Michael Jackson in 1988. The big male was very docile and easy going and I don't think he even fought back as there were no marks on the smaller male. I had thought due to the size that the big retic was a female and I got it unsexed. It had no visable spurs. So I put them together to breed and later that night found the huge male all bitten up and sliced very deep. I got him to a vet and had him stapled up. He recovered and due to the fact that he was too big to use practically for breeding I sold him to someone that wanted him for a pet.

As to the second part of your post here,.. it's a little odd and I'm reluctant to get into such a debate,.. but to compare protecting the genetic purity of a threatened species of python with a Hitler-like ideal for purity in human races just seems to be way off the deep end and without reason. First of all,. human races are not different species or subspecies. We're all the same species, just different races. But like, when the bald eagle was threatened with extinction in the late 70's they didn't cross it with the brown eagle or a hawk to make it have a comeback. No, that would defeat the purpose. There would be no more bald eagles if that were the case. They pulled together all known captive bald eagles in zoos and took eggs from wild nests to hatch artificially and breed the offspring with unrelated birds to generate more bald eagles. To imply that this is similar to the racial purity extremists' idea of not interbreeding human races is absurd. No offense, but it is.

But let's keep talking rock pythons, k?

>>Rock talk: a friend of mine who has been working with snakes for many years had(still has, i believe) a medium to big rock, about 13 feet or so, and a much bigger retic(maybe close to 19'). He got them in the same cage one day and guess what happened? the rock python wrapped the retic hard breaking it's spine and killing her. The poor retic stood no chance. Do you sense any territory protection from rocks when another species is introduced in the cage?
>>Another thing: the indian/burm hybrids. Let's just say that i'm on your side there, but it's a tricky issue and i rather keep out. You are right to say that we don't have the right to mess with a species genetic purity, but since we ain't gods and can't account for any divine intentions, we also have no right to protect such purity. Often we speak of animals as outsiders and forget that Homo Sapiens is an animal species as well...get the point!?? abruptly it brings a new light into the subject, a scary one, right? What would you call someone who believes that the different human localities should be keept pure and never crossbreed? A new Hitler, perhaps...
>>So i just keep out of that tricky subject.
>>Anyway, keep on with the rock talk...
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Well, i supose you are right about the hybrid thing, it's just that i don't put it down neither do i promote it. I believe you said even you keep hybrids, right? Anyway, going forward:
To me, rock pythons are the most amazing of the big boids, but i don't understand why they get so little atention. It seems like rocks live under the shadow of the other giant snakes. There could be so much to talk about them. In fact, a great number of interesting facts and records are given to some species in tv shows, books and documents making them more memorable, distinct and interesting, but once again rock pythons should be taking the credit. Here are a couple: It's often said that retics are the most widely distributed of the big pythons. Now, i don't know if they mean total area or most number of countries or whatever, but these people surely never looked at a map. Python Sebae exists troughout most of Africa and that's more than twice the territory that goes from India to the far point of Timor.
Also it's accepted that Eunectes Murinus is the heaviest snake. How do they figure that out? Biggest murinus on record was 27'4'' , biggest Sebae on record 32'1''. Although there are no indication of weight on these 2 beasts, you are all welcome to do your math...
As i said, i could talk about rocks all day.
Keep the rock talk alive, BrianSmith.

Hey there, Yes I keep burm/rock hybrids, and it may seem hypocritical of me,.. and perhaps it is. But I see a clear distinction between the two hybrids (burm/indian, burm/rock). For one thing burms and rocks look very different from one another and so the hybrids are almost always easy to spot. Even burms with tiny percentages of rock in them are very noticeable. Burms and indians look quite similar. An indian with a little burm in it may be hard to spot. Also, the indians are much more rare and threatened than the rocks (though admittedly rocks are on their way to being endangered) so there is the moral delimma. Also, the fact that burms and rocks come from different continents makes this hybrid very interesting to me. I will go into more depth about that later.

Yes, I agree, rocks don't get anywhere NEAR the recognition they should get as one of the giants or the attention they should get from the reptile market. A little hype might stir that up a bit. A lot of people are just unaware of them, I'm afraid. I think any true big herp keeper would likely have a genuine interest in keeping a rock or three. It's in our blood man.

Happy Herping.

>>Well, i supose you are right about the hybrid thing, it's just that i don't put it down neither do i promote it. I believe you said even you keep hybrids, right? Anyway, going forward:
>>To me, rock pythons are the most amazing of the big boids, but i don't understand why they get so little atention. It seems like rocks live under the shadow of the other giant snakes. There could be so much to talk about them. In fact, a great number of interesting facts and records are given to some species in tv shows, books and documents making them more memorable, distinct and interesting, but once again rock pythons should be taking the credit. Here are a couple: It's often said that retics are the most widely distributed of the big pythons. Now, i don't know if they mean total area or most number of countries or whatever, but these people surely never looked at a map. Python Sebae exists troughout most of Africa and that's more than twice the territory that goes from India to the far point of Timor.
>>Also it's accepted that Eunectes Murinus is the heaviest snake. How do they figure that out? Biggest murinus on record was 27'4'' , biggest Sebae on record 32'1''. Although there are no indication of weight on these 2 beasts, you are all welcome to do your math...
>>As i said, i could talk about rocks all day.
>>Keep the rock talk alive, BrianSmith.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I am just inquiring about where you got the statistics on a sebae getting 31'. I have only heard of Retics ever obtaining over 30' and not any recorded for over 60 years or so. I am not trying to discredit you or anything I am just interested in the source of this information. Thanks Todd

that info is not hard to track down at all. If you do a bit of looking around the internet you're sure to find something on it. Even the guinness book has it. (not to say that they're word is the ultimate truth, but then again, if we doubt it we might as well doubt the 32'9 1/2'' lenght on the retic).
Ivory Coast, 1932, a 32'1'' Python sebae sebae is shot near a school. That's the version going around.

Just going to chuck in my .3 cents here.

If a large python was dead it could very well easily stretch 2 or 3 feet without even attempting to stretch it. But humans tend to have a propensity for making things grander than they actually are. I would have to think that maybe it was stretched intentionally in which case I could easily believe that several additional feet could be achieved. But even so,.. a 28 foot rock python would be MASSIVE. Even if it were skinned and the skin stretched the original snake would likely have exceeded 24 feet. Still quite massive. Any which way you look at it, rocks get damn big.

>>that info is not hard to track down at all. If you do a bit of looking around the internet you're sure to find something on it. Even the guinness book has it. (not to say that they're word is the ultimate truth, but then again, if we doubt it we might as well doubt the 32'9 1/2'' lenght on the retic).
>>Ivory Coast, 1932, a 32'1'' Python sebae sebae is shot near a school. That's the version going around.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani