Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi-
Trouble w/ yetanother snake, when does it end, i guess never when you've got a hous full of em! I have bred sidewinders last year. had a w/ 00' female caught w/ a button) ocotillo wells, ca and the male was caught in ocotillio as well as an adult. also aquired another sidewinder, a female i beleive july 9 2002 that was a baby. My first female had alitter of 9 in june. the male is seperate from the two. The newer female is the one who is having the problems. Now the three of them always eat that is not the problem. n the past two mos. the w/c female 02' has been acting strange. first of all to my knowledge she also has not defecated since i have noticed the behavior. She is fine most of the day and sometimes, for a few days. the problem i am seeing is this... she will be coiled up completely tied like they do so well w/ her body slightly shuffled in the sand. I see her begin to take a breath and she rises the first about 1/8 to 1/6 of her body and almost looks like she releases air while opening up her mouth and than settles back in usually to be repeated in a breath or two. She also yawns a ton usually yawning, then closing her mouyh, then yawning again. I figure there is noway the temp is the problem as i bred 9 healthy babies in the exact conditions she is having problems in now. she also randomly just vigerously shakes her head once every week or so, I can see it atleast. This is the only venomous snake i have ever had a problem w/ and it is very confusing. She also appears to have a lrger body mass towards the tail like she really needsto to defecate, should i stop feeding until problem is figured out, has anyone heard of this. Please help, Thanks Jon

Is she going to heat? What are her heat options? Is she caged with the other pair? What are the humidity options? Have there been any husbandry or cage set-up changes associated with the change in behavior?

If she has a mass posteriorly the three most likely candidates are a bolus of fecal matter, retained eggs or an abcess. A slightly warmer than room temperature soak in shallow water might help if its the fecal matter. As long as she is not weak you could try this for a couple of hours. No drafts or quick temperature changes going in, during or coming out of the soak, so you may need to use ambient cage temp as your guiding temp for the soak.

I could maybe add more if you answer the above questions.

retained egg. Rattlesnakes don't lay eggs.

Clark,

Although rattlesnakes don't "lay" eggs, they actually do form eggs internally which will develop inside when fertilized. All that remains at the time of birth is the thin membrane that you typically see all over the cage once they break free. It may have been an unfertilized ova that was never passed and became lodged. It is possible.

Thanks for the tip!! But I already knew that.LOL Still they are considered
live bearers.

I can't resist, and I promise I am not trying to an as%#$^&*le etc. So with that in mind....

Is a snake hatching out of an egg not a live birth? Has the female that laid a clutch of eggs that do hatch not beared her young alive? And when rattlesnakes pass infertile ova, which they regularly do right next to their healthy babies, have they not just laid the proverbial egg? LOL!

Not to belabor this thread any longer but thats a great point Hugh. In fact rattlesnakes do occationally lay eggs, albeit unfertilized. I have yet to see it personally in rattlesnakes but when I used to breed redtail boas it happens all the time. With that in mind it's no suprize that every once in a while one might get stuck and become unpassable by natural means.

I had a willardi drop 10 healthy babies and three unfertilized eggs all in about three hours. It was her fourth straight year producing a healthy brood. She threw a few unfertilized eggs with some of the other broods. I've seen it in a few other species of rattlesnakes, and like you said, in boas and anacondas too.

For snakes, it's an egg system no matter where they incubate and hatch. LOL. Hey, have a safe holiday season. H

H,

That's amazing that such a tiny rattlesnake (relatively speaking) can have such a large liter. I've seen 3.5 ft specks only squeeze out 6 lil' guys.

You have a safe and happy holiday season as well!! Everyone else do the same.

yeah, maybe it was the miracle-gro plant food I put in her water? (For anyone else reading that is most definitely a joke).

Of all of the female willardi I have had breed over the years, she was a goer like no other. She had 4,5, 7 and then 10 live babies during that 4 year run.

WOW!

I am glad "we can't see body language" or "hear tone of voice" on these forums for it seemed for a second that you were being a bit snide with your remark about rattlesnakes not laying eggs. I am sure that was not the case...

BPO stated it quite eloquently as to what rattlesnakes do with their eggs enroute to live birth. Their "live birth" is not at all like a mammals, and quite frankly, it could easily be debated that they do in fact lay unshelled eggs that have virtually no out of body incubation time before "hatching".

What I was referring to in my first post was the possibility of an unfertile retained egg, ovum, yolked follicle, etc., that is now stuck, hopefully, in the oviduct, where with proper medication and vet attention, it can be safely expelled by the snake.

Sh is currently housed w/ the other female that is now proven and away from the male. i have the temp regulated at 84-86 day
76-78 at night. I feel she was much to small to breed w/ male but it is somewha poss. but I don't think thats what it is. I am not sure what you mea by heat options but she does have a branch (lrg) to bak which is directly under the light and many hidespots and I NEVER keep water in w/ them. i have only seen 1 sidewinder er drink and it was the day after my adult female had her 9 babies, she must have been exhausted, should I keep water w/ them. Imoved them into a bigger tank from a 30 to a 60 but that is the only change i have made. when i soak her if it is the mass, will it come out on its own or what? What can do if this is something that has to be fixed by a vet, is there any venomus herp vets in so. cal. Thansk for all of your help. Jon

Tube her and palpate. If there is a stuck ova, or dystocia(sp?), it should be in the posterior end.
If that is the case, bring her to the vet and describe the problem. If the vet decides that that is the case, a shot of oxytosin should help her pass the ova within the hour.

Good luck,
creep

Water and sidewinders has been debated for years. When I used to keep and breed them I always provided waterbowls and they drank from them. I also provided a wide variety of shelters with one that had moist sphagnum moss so they would have a high humidity option for their choice. They used them for shed cycles and birthing spots. While many sand dune sidewinders do a lot on the surface, many spend a lot of time in rodent burrows for refuges etc. These subsurface borrows can have fairly high ambient humidities. Just a thought. I know many will contest this.

Also, you might wish to try providing a much broader heat gradient in the enclosure. Sidewinders, like other rattlesnakes, will thermoregulate different parts of their bodies to different temperatures for different reasons. I have had good success with several species doing this. I provide very hot surface (135 F) and subsurface (110) heat on one end of a cage, medium surface and subsurface temps elsewhere in the cage and then ambient room temperature or cooled to the low 70's on the other end. Then I never have to choose what I think they want or need. The very high temps are off at night by timer in some cages. They use all of the heat and cool options at different times. Most rattlesnakes when sick will seek heat in the 90's at least. They must be able to come and go to it at their choice. Don't force higher heat on them.

You can't rule out social stress as another possible reason for her having difficulty, and may wish to consider setting her up alone if she is strong enough to move her out.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

I have seen a couple of situations just like yours, the first time it was with one of my own sidewinders. With the very first winders I ever kept I made the mistake of thinking it would get enough water from it's food items althought I did offer water every once in a while. My snake died of an intestinal impaction. I have seen the same symptoms in other sidewinders that have been kept without water. THey drink more often than you realize.

A for humidity levels, I recall reading a study somewhere that showed that although outside humidity levels in sidewinder habitat could be as low as 10-20%, the burrows which sidewinders were found occupying measured from 65-87% humidity.

Desert snakes (desert everything actually) are all about staying hydrated, avoiding heat most of the time and using both temperature and water very wisely.

I also remember another (Dan Becks??) study about humidity in Gila monster burrows where the humidity was four times ambient air or higher. The highest humidity was where the gravid females were. No surprise huh?

well, late last night, she defecated a pig pile in the cage. I went through it all looked normal besides for the fact that there was about half that looked fresh and the other half or so looked at a lot older. She still doesn't look as narrow as she should be but she definatlt looks a lot btter. Is this even progress, is it a good sign, should I continue feeding. someone recomended tubing the snae and bringing to the vet, i called evry vet in san diego and no one will even work on a a rattlesnake in a tube w/ me holding it, even to give it a shot, I don't think they will sell it to me to administer either, not that I fell I should. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for all of your help thus far! Jon

What I meant to say in the first line is that she defecated a big pile of poop, not a "pig" pile like my error said. Just wanted to cler that up before that got to be the focus of the converstaion!

Is she still doing the "yawning" type respirations? How is her general behavior since defecating?

Did she get a drink? Was the fecal pile drier than a normal stool?

Have you made any changes to the cage set up?

How noticeable is the lump now that she defecated?

I would not give her a shot of oxytocin unless you get her radiographed to confirm what the mass is (or was?). Giving her oxytocin without her having (god, here I go again) an egg will just be an extra stress.

thanks for the reply and all of your time here it goes...
Since last night, she also went again sometime in the middle of the night!!!
The pile from bfore was mosit and looked preety normal besides for a little dry segment. The pile I found thia morn. was evtremely dry and it is not because I found it later! It is all poop though, it looks to me atleast. I have been watching her and it doesn't seem to look like she is still doing the "yawning" or akward breathing aymore. I put waer in the cage the night she first pooped but I have not seen her drink, that is not to say she didn't though but agin, I hyve seen only one of my sidewinders drink and that was one time, right after birthing to 9 babies! Well, she is still w/ the other female, do you realy think it is necessary to move her. Is it possible that she was just really constiptaed or is there o way it is that simple, if so, hat would cause this? Also, the lump doesn't seem to be near as big but is perhaps still noticible it is hard to tell, I will try to see better a bit later and watch her some more. thanks again for your help.! jon

sounds like something was/is obstructing the bowel, whether an egg or an actual bowel obstruction such as compacted rodent hair due to dehydration (sidewinders have a neat adaptation to desert living, when water is short their gut can shrink incredibly, rodent hair can get trapped at this time. In the wild they usually stop feeding at this time but in captivity if they keep on eating, hair can keep building up) it's impossible to say at this point. Sounds like good progress is being made. Two things you can try. First to make sure the snake is getting sufficiently hydrated you can try putting a spray bottle on mist. Then when the snake is tightly coiled pull the trigger just enough that it "spits" droplets on the snake. Many rattlesnakes will drink rainwater that collects in the folds made by their coils. Then later try tubing the snake and very gently massage the remaining bulge for a bit. Maybe if it is a bowel obstruction it will help work it loose so it can be passed.

Rich's ideas are excellent. If I might add, if you do mist her, do it with as close to air/cage temperature water as you can. If she does drink, repeat it a couple of times a day for a few days.

As Rich explained earlier, this could be as simple as dehydration, and hopefully, you are on the way to correcting that problem.

As for whether you separate them or not, this idea could need a whole new thread?? I have what I feel to be significant data regarding social grouping and social stress among conspecific members of a population in other Crotalus species. Whether your female is suffering from this or not would be hard to say?