Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I finally figured out where the ventrals and the subcaudals are located on a snake, but need to know where the dorsal scales are too. Oh, and when counting the subcaudals do you include the tip of the tail and the teeny tiny scales just before the tip? I'm trying to make an ID on a snake and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
MissHisssss

I replied to your other post about subcaudals (you count them all but only on one side where they are divided).

As for dorsal scales, you are counting the dorsal scale rows across the body (generally at midbody, but sometimes they will give three values - about 10 rows back from the head, about midbody, and about 10 rows in front of the tail).

To count them, start at the ventrals an count up and over the snake to the other side at the ventrals. Here is a pic to show what I mean (sorry about the blurry numbers - jpg artifacts) -

Of course, this pic only shows one side of the snake, you have to count all the way around until you reach the edge of the ventrals on the other side.
Notice that you can count across one line of scales or you can zigzag back and forth for convenience. You will get the same number either way.

I guarantee that if you could get someone to take a decent digital photograph of the snake's head, you could get it ID'd quicker.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

what are you trying to id?

I'm not trying to sex a snake. I have a big black snake here and I'm trying to find out what it is. I've now ruled out Indigo... because the heads are different, so now it's down to either a Mexican Black King or a Black Milksnake... which have very simular heads (to my old eyes that is). It doesn't have a neck, like a milk, it's over 4 feet long, and people are saying it doesn't look like a King, etc. I bought it as a King but if it's a Milk I'll be happy too. Underneath where his scutes are, is really more of a really dark dark gray rather than a coal black like his body. I've figured out counting the ventrals and subcaudals won't really help after all because, for instance... in a quick wiggly count I got 217 or 219 ventrals and the Milk has 216-236, and the MBK has 213-225. See what I mean? It can go either way. Same situation with the subcaudals. With the dorsals, though, the Milk has 19 and the MBK has 23-25.... so, I thought I'd go this route. Yes, having a camera worth doing this with, sure would help.

Thanks for the help.... I'll let ya all know if I get the deed done.
MissHisssss

Hi... was wondering what the differences are with the Black Milk Snake head and the Mexican Black King?

I did the best job that I could with counting everything on a moving object and these are the results.
According to the book I have here on Kings and Milks...
Subcaudal count:
Black Milk is 42-63
MBK is 47-56
Mine 53

Ventrals count:
Black Milk is 216-236
MBK 213-225
Mine 217 or 219

Dorsals
Black Milk is 19
MBK 23-25
Mine 21 on more counts than 23

I guess this leaning more toward being a Mexican Black King, but what do you think?
MissHisssss

First off, I don't own any Black Milks so I'm going on what I've read about them.

Check the belly. At 4 feet, You may have some remnant tri-color pattern if it's a black milk.

If you are pretty sure it's one or the other, here's something to consider. Mex Black Kings love heat, Black Milks don't. If you find the snake doing everything it can to avoid the hot spot, it's probably the milk. If you see it soaking up heat, probably Mex Black King.

Black Milks are still far from inexpensive snakes. An adult will run a few hundred dollars. Someone would have to have money to burn to just hand that away. Mex Black Kings are pretty cheap and are much more likely to go for cheap at a pet store.

Black Milks get quite a bit bigger too.

Of course, it could be a black pine snake or mussurana or forest cobra....

Doug T

The head definitly says milk or king. He avoids the heat for sure. Seems to hate it. No stripes on the bottom but the scutes are a really dark dark steel gray rather that coal black, if that helps.

The person I got it from was told it was a black racer, of which it definitly isn't. He decided it was a MBK but now he's wondering if in fact it is a milk now that I've pointed out all these differences.

MissHisssss

Black Milks are the biggest milk snake. So when this snake of yours gets to 6.5-7 feet, you'll know for sure.

There are a few good caresheets for Black Milks. They pretty much thrive at room temperature.

I'd love to have a black milk that I could buy at Black King Prices.

Doug T

One of the difficulties in using scale characters to differentiate closely related snakes is that the values overlap, as you have seen.

The overall probability is very high that the snake is a Mexican Black King. There are several reasons for this...

1. Black Milks are expensive and uncommon. Black Kings are common and relatively cheap. Someone with a 4 foot black milk is going to know what it is and not likely to get rid of it without knowing what they are doing (I have never seen a Black Milk in a petstore, for example, while Black Kings are fairly common).

2. A 4 foot black milk would show a faint pattern through the black, at least on the ventral surface and towards the head. A 4 foot Mexican Black King would have no discernable pattern (some have some light speckling on the sides or spots under the chin).

3. A Black Milk is much jerkier when handled, whereas Black Kings are much calmer. Neither species is inclined to bite, but the milks are just more high strung.

4. Black Kings are generally good feeders, but not psychos. When feeding a black milk, you have to be careful where you place your hands while the room smells of rat. My adult black milks generally constrict the dead rats and then thrash around the cage when eating them. Black Kings generally just eat.

I have kept both species (I currently have a pair of Black Milks) and they really have little in common other than coloration.

If you could get a good photo of the head of the snake, it would be pretty easy to tell them apart.

Here is a pic of one of my black milks' head. Notice the lighter area on the side of the head near the tip of the snout. This is a remnant of the light pattern that was present here when she was a hatchling. Even at almost 5 feet, she still shows this remnant.

Also notice how the neck just behind the head is wider than any part of the head itself. Mex Black Kings usually have more of a "neck" meaning their head is slightly wider than their neck.

Your snake sounds like a Black King to me, as it did several months ago when this conversation started.

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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

That looks like my snakes head... and neck.

I know this subject has been discussed in the past, but I'm still trying to find out. Like I said in another post somewhere around here... I realize the Black Milk snake costs more. But I'm not exactly sure that the seller actually knew what he had because when I talked to him about it he said that the person that sold it to him thought it was a black racer, and that he (the seller) didn't do a scale count on it and that it might be a Black Milk. I was also told he is only two. Is over 4 feet big for only being two? He stays on the cold side. He was a VERY VERY aggressive eater till he got sick. I'm not sure about the jerky thing. Sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't. So no help there. I've had people say he doesn't look like a King and I agree. He has no neck like the MBK's I've seen. Do your MBK have a dark gray scute area, or is it black? I'm sorry about all this... but I just need to feel more sure about his ID.

Would you happen to have a picture of a MBK's head too? It might help. Or, where do you live I'll bring him over. Only kidding... but if you know of anyone in the Las Cruses, NM... El Paso TX area that might know... I'll take him over for a looks see.

Thanks for all your help....
MissHisssss

Is over 4 feet big for only being two?

Yes, that is big for a 2 year old Mex Black King, but not unheard of.

Do your MBK have a dark gray scute area, or is it black?

I no longer have any nigrita, but in general they are solid dark snakes as adults (at least most captive lineages are).
Actually, many nigrita tend to be a very dark brownish color rather than jet black, although it is hard to tell the difference in most light.

But again, a 4 foot Black Milk would have remnants of a milksnake patter showing through, particularly on the anterior underside. In the absence of any of this pattern, I think you can assume it is a nigrita.

Or, where do you live I'll bring him over. Only kidding... but if you know of anyone in the Las Cruses, NM... El Paso TX area that might know... I'll take him over for a looks see.

Actually, I lived in El Paso for 3.5 years while I was getting my MS from UTEP. Did an amazing amount of herping in that area!

There used to be a herp society in El Paso and another good one in Las Cruces. I don't know if they are still in existence, but you could call the biology Depts at UTEP or NMSU and ask if anyone there knows if the societies are still around (Dr. Jerry Johnson at UTEP might know). There are quite a few herpers around there.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

Yeah it's probably a MBK but I'll check to see if the Herp Society is still here and see if anyone can check this dude out. I already showed him to someone that has a reptile store in El Paso who also has boo coo reptiles and he's one of them that says that it doesn't look like a King. So nuts I'll stay till I get more people to look at it. The majority will win and that's when I'll be able to rest.

Thanks for all your help
MissHisssss