Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We bailed out of the Corn Snake market about a year ago. Right as prices started to fall out.

Is the Corn Snake market crashing (or crashed) like the Leopard Gecko market already did? Is there any future left for the breeder of these snakes?

I've noticed at local herp shows - the corn snake breeders can't sell anything. Their tables are full of snakes - but no one even LOOKS at their stuff.

At the last show I went to - I overheard a corn snake breeder talking with a local herp store owner... The breeder told the owner he would wholesale everything that was left after the show to him - and he didn't even care about the normals, amels, anerys, and snows. The shop owner could just TAKE them.

Sounds like a saturated market to me.

In my area you cant even give them away.It's not just corns here it's everything.Our last reptile show did so bad i doubt there will be one next year.Most vendors didnt even make enough for gas money let alone paying for a booth.It's not that alot of people didnt attend the show as a matter of fact we had a record crowd.It's the economy here that's bad.Our state has lost 24,000 union manufacturing jobs since april and we loose more everyday.

I'm not sure it's all that bad everywhere. I could be wrong, but this year I bred my first clutch of 13 normal-het snow and never even advertised to sell them. It could just be that I knew the right people who would buy them, but when I mentioned them to a local pet store owner he asked how much I would sell them for..so I assumed the market was good for them. I didn't sell them to the pet store, just because I don't like the mice they have there, (all dark and freezer burnt looking). But they were anxious to get them. I don't think we ever even have herp shows in mn, at least none I've been able to attend, and maybe that's why the market is better here, not as many people have "drive up" access to them. Or as I said, I may have just got lucky my first year...we'll see what happens next year
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
0.1 Snow (Ruby)
1.0 Anery A (Breaden)
0.0.4 Normal het-snow (no names yet)
1.1 Bloodred (Vlad the Impailer and Natasha)
0.1 Anery Stripe (Morticia)
1.0 Candy Cane (Kane)
0.1 Amel (Christine)
1.3 Cats (Alexys{f}, Mikki{f}, Timothy{m}, Seven{f})
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

And I'm bringing a whole lot of breeding projects with me. If plans work out - my wife will open a reptile shop in Northwestern MN within 2 years. We'll see... And I do think you are right - MN is an untapped resource.

Uhoh, competition moving up eh? lol I'm just a hobby breeder, And I think I always will be. But it would be great to get another local breeder. How far into "Northern MN" are you talking? I'm in St.P myself, so I'm waiting for them to do a show at the State Fair Grounds...I think it would be the perfect place to have one, they have every other show there. And I'm jealous every time I hear about someone's great experience at the latest herp show
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
0.1 Snow (Ruby)
1.0 Anery A (Breaden)
0.0.4 Normal het-snow (no names yet)
1.1 Bloodred (Vlad the Impailer and Natasha)
0.1 Anery Stripe (Morticia)
1.0 Candy Cane (Kane)
0.1 Amel (Christine)
1.3 Cats (Alexys{f}, Mikki{f}, Timothy{m}, Seven{f})
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

We'll be moving back to my hometown of East Grand Forks. So... We'll do our best to take advantage of the markets in both Minnesota and North Dakota.

We're primarily breeders of pythons, boas, select colubrids, dragons, and monitors - but every year it seems we add another 10 or 15 species to the list of "projects". We've changed our focus mostly to higher end type animals - but those animals have no place in a herp shop (there's usually no market for anything over about $200 in a store). So... We will certainly be collecting names of local breeders - as it is easier to purchase healthy CBB animals locally.

When I considered selling my hatchlings to one of the local places here, I was looking around for a small family owned shop that would know how to take care of them and how to best represent them to potential customers. There weren't any I could find, and the one I did find had really cruddy mice, and I think my babies deserve the best

Grand Forks is a few hours drive from St.P I think, But definately let me know when you do move up and start a shop. Because when I start producing more than one clutch a year, I'm sure I'll start finding it harder to sell them without some type of outlet other than my website. Next years clutch(es) should be all anery or maybe half anery and half snow...depending on if my anery male is het amel. But in a few years I'll also be producing "Love-line" bloods and a few other varieties.

Bring all ur warm winter duds It's COLD up here!
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
0.1 Snow (Ruby)
1.0 Anery A (Breaden)
0.0.4 Normal het-snow (no names yet)
1.1 Bloodred (Vlad the Impailer and Natasha)
0.1 Anery Stripe (Morticia)
1.0 Candy Cane (Kane)
0.1 Amel (Christine)
1.3 Cats (Alexys{f}, Mikki{f}, Timothy{m}, Seven{f})
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

I live in SE Minnesota, 2 hrs. south of the metro area. I think there are only a couple of reptile shops in the cities, they have mostly overpriced, limited selection and the weird thing is they don't seem to offer many cornsnakes! Mostly boas and pythons. There are scattered pet shops in Mn. that carry some reptiles but I haven't had luck selling to them. I think the best way to sell in this area is through ads in the local papers. I , too, would LOVE to see a reptile show come to the metro area but I think there is somewhat limited interest and the further north out of the metro you go, the economics of the counties drop , there is less money for 'luxuries' altogether and your market goes down. Your best chance for selling reptiles would be to stay in the Mpls-St.Paul area and the surrounding suburbs. Just my opinion.

The one reptile shop that offered to buy my babies only had a few TINY and I mean like tiny for a hatchling even, corns, and they were kept in little deli cups, while all the bigger snakes were in nice set-ups. The store had a ton of pricey lizards and several large boas and pythons, I have no idea who buys them, since they are even higher priced than most non-herp pet shops. Charging 75$+ for a common ball python hatchling even. And the mice they had! UHG! I thought they would be a good source for me, until I saw how they treated the corns compared to the higher priced snakes, and how gross their frozen mice looked.

A show would likely do well right here at the fairgrounds, seems almost everyone in MN knows where the fair is, and it is the "largest state fair" in the country So there's plenty of room for a herp show...

And we could certainly use a new herp shop, one that knew their animals well, and treated them well.
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
0.1 Snow (Ruby)
1.0 Anery A (Breaden)
0.0.4 Normal het-snow (no names yet)
1.1 Bloodred (Vlad the Impailer and Natasha)
0.1 Anery Stripe (Morticia)
1.0 Candy Cane (Kane)
0.1 Amel (Christine)
1.3 Cats (Alexys{f}, Mikki{f}, Timothy{m}, Seven{f})
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

. . . is, in my opinion, that very few Minnesotans want to spend money for cool and spendier herps. It's not a very sophisticated herp market in Minnesota, as compared to the southeastern part of the country. It would be hard to generate a lot of sales.

The Minnesota Herp Society is going to host a Big Herp Symposium (I can't remember which one at the moment) in 2005 - I hope that they hold a herp show then.

I agree, though - that it would be cool to have some herp shows around here. I would love to see one!!!
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

Unfortunately, it seems many people are simply in the herp market for pure profit. When the profit is no longer there for a particular species, they get out.

I still think there is a market IF you are either a VERY reputable breeder with quality animals and good people skills OR if you are a small time breeder that does not mass produce babies and prepares ahead to find homes for offspring. AND EVEN then, I highly doubt any of those breeders will ever produce a profit given the money poured into their hobby.

Corn snakes still are (and may always be) the species of choice for the first time snake owner. It is simply the easiest to care for and most docile of all snakes. Ball Pythons are that way too. HOWEVER, now most people slap a fancy name on an unusual BP morph OR sell babies as possible hets for traits they probably don't even carry (for hundreds of dollars).

Besides, you already answered your own question so WHY did you even post the question in the first place?

"We bailed out of the Corn Snake market about a year ago. Right as prices started to fall out....Is the Corn Snake market crashing (or crashed) like the Leopard Gecko market already did? Is there any future left for the breeder of these snakes? Sounds like a saturated market to me."
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BA HUMBUG until Dec 12th
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
Causa : Latet : Vis : Est : Notissima
The Cause Is Hidden, The Results Well Known.
-carl3

"Besides, you already answered your own question so WHY did you even post the question in the first place? "

It's called a discussion forum. I was looking for discussion. Opinions. This forum has many participants, and it is safe to say many of them breed corn snakes. This is called a target audience!

Thanks for your comments!

breed the morphs that have been around for twenty years and have this wholesale mentality. I was guilty of it myself until I started really looking at Lavenders. It got me all excited again. These are exciting snakes. And dont forget bloodreds. Think about it, whats available in the bloodred game, nothing really yet because there are very few guys working with them. All you really see are bloodreds, hypo bloodreds, and Amel bloodreds. Soon you will see some very exciting bloodred morphs hitting the market. As far as the market crashing, if you have interesting snakes to sell, you should have no problem selling them and getting some decent money for them. One of the problems I have seen is that many people dont know what they are looking at when they see cornsnakes. A Lavender looks the same to them as a ghost. I agree with you about the corns on the tables. Especially up in the Northeast. Thats one of my personal goals to put some killer snakes on a table and WOW people. Hang in there, there are some big things happening in the corn world right now. Best of luck. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

np

i would love to get my hands on that snake or it's siblings, what do you call that morph?
also do you have a website?

its a striped butter motley that is pretty much fully striped. His parent are super yellow butter motleys. For some reason, the whole clutch popped out almost fully striped with that male having the widest, fullest stripe of them all. Of the three females that hatched out,only one was striped so I kept her as well. I think she will have better color. I think that male will blow away most actual butter stripes in a year or so. Thanks alot. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

that adult butter motley was mom by the way. Here are some siblings I think. thanks Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

well i think i am going to get one of them from you in a couple of years, thanks for the eye candy
i know what my next corn is going to look like.
Demon

If that picture was a tad bit clearer (sharper?) it would have been my ultimate desktop wallpaper.. That is definatly my favorite of all your snakes at the moment. Excellent. A perfect Motley stripe Butter.
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

But I just don't worry about "the market". I keep herps because I enjoy them, that's it. I keep and breed what I like just 'cos I like it. I produced 217 corn snakes this year, sold some whole sale, sold some almost retail, traded some and gave a few away. Other species I work with may bring more money, some will bring less. Doesn't matter 'cos I can always walk into my herp room, have a look around and grin and say "Heck Yeah!"
Keep what you like, like what you keep.
If you don't really like 'em, don't keep 'em.
All the best,
Perry

It seems to me it goes in cycles. Ball pythons were real hot for a while. Leopard Gecko were hot. Now it seems beardies and chameleons are hot. Here in Texas there seems to be alot of interest in kings and hognose and other locality snakes. I think there is still alot of interest in corns for first time buyers, but on the low end of the scale. It's always easier to sell a $20 snake than a $300 snake, but you have to sell 15 to break even. We're gonna try our luck with Dumeril's Boas. Seems to be alot of demand here, with short supply. Of course by the time we have some hatclings, they will be every where.

np

>>But I just don't worry about "the market". I keep herps because I enjoy them, that's it. I keep and breed what I like just 'cos I like it. I produced 217 corn snakes this year, sold some whole sale, sold some almost retail, traded some and gave a few away. Other species I work with may bring more money, some will bring less. Doesn't matter 'cos I can always walk into my herp room, have a look around and grin and say "Heck Yeah!"
>>Keep what you like, like what you keep.
>>If you don't really like 'em, don't keep 'em.
>>All the best,
>>Perry
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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

You actually like to keep your snakes because you are interested in them? What a crazy idea. Keep it up.

...if I were keeping corns for money, I'd have quit already.

For me, the biggest enjoyment is playing with the genetics aspect of it all, and seeing all the neat (and cute) hatchlings hatch out. Actually, I think I have more fun planning what I'm going to produce than anything else. I get to look at what I've got and say, "Hmm... crossing X with Y could be cool... or maybe I'll pair it with Z and get XZ's in the F2s."

(And of course, there's nothing more adorable than a little cornsnake nose peeking out of a tiny slit in the egg...)

There's no way I'll ever make money at this hobby, but atleast I can have a little fun with it. And that's what hobbies are all about.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Thanks to all who responded.
By the way, I LOVE your tag, Kat, about mice in the freezer.

=)
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1.2 Corns
1.1 Graybanded
2.1 Banana Cal Kings
0.3 Solomon Island Ground Boas

I think it's really only the low-end morphs that have the low prices...

Anything high-end or cutting edge will still sell at a higher price. Heck, I saw a pair of corns go for $4000, and I'd wager that that's the highest price anyone's paid for a pair of corns, let alone a pair of hatchlings. (Opal Motleys, from Rich Z)

The market isn't gone... it's just shifted.

Not to mention, I've heard two people (in different locales) tell me already that they can get $20 or more locally for plain old normal hatchlings...
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

I just wanted to make one last point -

I know some people find it hard to distinguish between market, hobby, income, career, way of life, etc...

The point of this thread was not whether or not you enjoy corn snakes, but where the VALUE of the corn snake has gone.

If you are a hobby breeder, and you are not concerned with what kind of money your offspring catches, that's fine!

For some of us, we rely on what we breed and sell to put food on the table, make the car payment, pay the mortgage, put the kids through college, etc.

I believe you can do both. I've been a full-time breeder for the past 10 years and still keep what I like, not what will make me the most money. Take care. John Meltzer

you can love them and expect to sell them for a profit as well. I breed as a hobby. I have a very draining full time job and sometimes I am stuck at work for four days wihtout coming home. I breed because I love the hobby. I love sitting at the table at the shows, I love keeping in touch with folks across the country and I still get giddy every time I see a head poke out from the egg. That being said, I made the personal decision to get involved in the higher end stuff. I fell in love with the lavenders and bloodreds and thats what I want to keep. Because of this, I decide to INVEST some money into it. I say invest because thats what it is. Im the one who took the plunge with Riches Opal Motleys. Why, because I think they are beautiful? true.....I think they rare? true......but I also think they will be worth quite a bit of money when they are ready to breed. Call me what you will but Id' rather get stuck keeping back a clutch of Lavender motleys or Opal Motleys because I cant sell them due to them being too expensive than having 400 snows and noone wants them. The way I look at it, at the very least, I will have some excellent trading material. I think the gentleman who said keep what you like and like what you keep is very wise. I also simply think that if you can break even or make a little profit, you would that much wiser. There is definately a market out there! Thanks for listening. Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy