Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been hearing and reading some seemingly disturbing rumors concerning burmese pythons and namely morph burmese like albino greens (patternless). Some of these rumors are very extreme and seem very exagerated. Others seem as if they may have some truth to them. Disturbing truth. As a breeder or these burm morphs I feel it is my duty to get to the bottom of this issue and try to dig up as much facts on the matter as possible. Simply because,.. if there is any truth to these rumors I certainly do not feel good about providing the herp world and trusting customers with inherently defective snakes doomed to die in 4 years.

The rumors are a little varied. Some have it that all captive produced burmese are born with a sickness in them that causes them to die by about the age of four. Others narrow it down to a few specific morphs such as the afore-mentioned greens and albino greens implying an additional genetic weakness due to extensive inbreeding in creating the morph. And then there are a lot of other theories somewhere in between.

I personally don't completely believe any of them, but I do read them with an open mind and some of it has made me raise an eyebrow in light of what I do know about the burmese susceptibility to respitory infection, the animals I lost in the 80's to respitory infections, and the high number of recent deaths I have read about here and in other forums.

In addition to this when I last visited a large breeder of burms I noticed that there really weren't very many burmese adults in the enormous place. Hundreds of retics. Hundreds of baby retics. But very very few burmese. I remember wondering then if this breeder (who shall remain nameless) had experienced something like what I had experienced in the late 80's when I had a very contagious viral outbreak caused by a single female burmese. Within a couple of years it wiped out 75% of all my burmese.

But back to the rumors. If there is any truth to any of these rumors we can do some very brief surveys here and can begin to narrow down the myths and can single out the facts. I think that the best way to begin would be for every burm owner to post a list of their burmese pythons, how old they are, where they came from, and what phase they are,. as well as what burmese they may have had that died, what phase it was or they were, where they came from (important!) and how old they were. I think if we all take a part in this we can begin to form a clear pattern of just exactly what, if any, potential problems burmese may have.

As for me, since I got back into this business nearly 3 years ago I have had no problems with any burmese in terms of respitory problems or death. However,. all of my burmese are still under three years old, so they really don't apply as far as disputing the rumors other than that I have had no problems. I did buy some adult ceylonese that died of upper respitory infections shortly after getting them however. One on the third day. These came in with what killed them. In the 80's I had many burmese that were over 4 years old and I had experienced no problems until the fateful day that I bought and entered into the colony the single female carrying the deadly virus. And while all my burmese were healthy and fine until then, it should still be noted that they were highly susceptible to this virus and died rather quickly once they contracted it. I referred to it then as "Burmese Aids" because once they had it they were gonners, but it sounds strikingly similar to what I have read of concerning "Burmese Disease". Since I witnesed this virus firsthand I certainly know that it exists,. but I do not subscribe to the idea that the young are born with it as the rumors have it. Not until I see some evidence of it, anyway.

Again, please take a few minutes to post all the above information on your experience with your burmese. This study will benefit us all as well as all future would-be burm owners. Thank you.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Not that my information will be readily helpfull I will start the responses for you. Previously I have had about 8 regular Burmese and I have never had any problems with them. I had one albino Burmese for about five or six years many years ago and also with no health problems. All these were purchased from various pet stores(I was young and nieve about things back then and didn't know that there was other options for getting herps). I recently started my collection again and I have 1.1 albino burms het for grantie and 0.1 burm het for granite. I purchased these from Bob Clark and I believe they are Sept 2002 babies. I got them in October 2002 and they were still about 24" or so. They are healthy and doing wonderfull. Sorry I can add more critical data to your research but I will keep you posted as time goes on, Todd

No, this is a great start and every bit of data is relevant and valuable.

What were the ages of the 8 regular burms? And what happened to them and the albino? Do you have any idea where they are and if they are still alive?

>>Not that my information will be readily helpfull I will start the responses for you. Previously I have had about 8 regular Burmese and I have never had any problems with them. I had one albino Burmese for about five or six years many years ago and also with no health problems. All these were purchased from various pet stores(I was young and nieve about things back then and didn't know that there was other options for getting herps). I recently started my collection again and I have 1.1 albino burms het for grantie and 0.1 burm het for granite. I purchased these from Bob Clark and I believe they are Sept 2002 babies. I got them in October 2002 and they were still about 24" or so. They are healthy and doing wonderfull. Sorry I can add more critical data to your research but I will keep you posted as time goes on, Todd
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

The regulars I had back in 84-90 and I owned them for probably for about four years each. Shortly after that I sold them because I was going join the army. I have absolutley no idea who or where they are. The albino I had in 93 and I had her for about three years but had to sell her because I was getting shipped overseas to Italy. I sold her to a snake breeder in upstate New york. Once again I do not know the source. That was so long ago and back then I did not keep any type of records. All I know is that they all were healthy and never had any problems the times I owned them. I also think that it should be noted that due to the time when I purchased my regular babies they were still imported regularly so all of them were w/c. Sorry I couldn't be more helpfull, Todd

In all of my years keeping/breeding burms, and, rescuing over 50 burms each year (not to mention the long term adult I have that range in age from 6-26 years of age) I have never heard anything like this.....if anyone would have a chance on experiencing it would be me due to the high volume of sick burms that we take in (and we have only lost one or two over the years; primarily due to RI or complications due to RI)...hopefully, our strict quarantine procedures has prevented a severe outbreak. But, I have heard of viruses wiping out entire herp collections (not just specifically burms)...pretty scary stuff.

Fantastic Rob. This here is very promising and really is a great beginning to help extinguish the paranoid rumors concerning early death.

But buddy,.. how about some figures and cold hard data. I'm trying to compile some data here so as to build a set of facts to set a precident. So any details about some of these animals would be very helpful, if at all possible. Even if the accounts are mildily ballpark, like "about 15 years old" or "maybe 10 years old when it died". It sounds like you could have a wealth of information there that could really help this cause of mine. Naturally, as a breeder of burmese I would love nothing more than to have all of this disproved. So I'd really appreciate anything additional you could lend here, detail-wise. Thanks Rob.

And your new place looks fantastic! Concrats on your aspirations finally coming to fruition.

>>In all of my years keeping/breeding burms, and, rescuing over 50 burms each year (not to mention the long term adult I have that range in age from 6-26 years of age) I have never heard anything like this.....if anyone would have a chance on experiencing it would be me due to the high volume of sick burms that we take in (and we have only lost one or two over the years; primarily due to RI or complications due to RI)...hopefully, our strict quarantine procedures has prevented a severe outbreak. But, I have heard of viruses wiping out entire herp collections (not just specifically burms)...pretty scary stuff.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

No problem Brian, it will just take time to get the info to you. We have data sheets of many of the burms we keep and have kept...nothing too fancy but the info should be helpful.

Thanks a million Rob. This will really be more helpful than you may realize. With positive data from a good sized population of burms this will help greatly to set a precident that will help to invalidate the claims that captive burms are predisposed to die at a certain age. This rumor has always bothered me and I have never believed it entirely, though have considered that specific bloodlines MAY be tainted with this. But I have yet to see any proof of this. However, I have witnessed a high rate of deaths in the burmese. But your data will be very helpful in disproving any claims of any connection to the snakes being born with a viral time-released bomb in their systems.

As a breeder of burm morphs I feel that it is my duty and responsibility to address these rumors head on and either disprove them or find that they are true and face the consequences and try to figure out the best course of action in dealing with it. I would think that other breeders would feel the same and would rather get to the truth (regardless of the cost to business) rather than simply ignoring it, hoping it will go away and possibly selling snakes to people that are destined to die.

But with data like your own there Rob it looks like we are well on our way to having evidence that there is little merit to this worst case scenario tale. And though normally science and data should be exacting in proving or disproving theories, in this particular case it does not have to be. In this case it can be somewhat vague and "loose" as long as it demonstrates that the snakes live well beyond 4 years on average and/or that ALL burmese do not get sick. So it can certainly be ballpark in it's nature. Ergo: (Female, over 10, still alive, never sick) etc.

Again Rob, a thousand thanks. Your contribution is very important and I'm sure that it is appreciated by all herpers, keepers and breeders alike as this is beneficial to us all.

>>No problem Brian, it will just take time to get the info to you. We have data sheets of many of the burms we keep and have kept...nothing too fancy but the info should be helpful.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Brian, I will have much more available, however, here are a few tidbits that should help your cause:

Type of Burm source years at home/facility still alive?

Normal rescue 5 yes
normal rescue 28 yes
albino rescue 6 yes
labyrynth donation 6 yes
green donation 5 (transferred) yes
albino rescue 12 yes

Animals that were rescued but no longer residing at WDC (these burms were treated, quarantined and placed or euthanized):

type source age (if known) still alive
albino rescue 4 no (death due to severe emaciation)
normal rescue 12 yes
normal rescue 8 no (death due to heavy internal parasite loads)
normal rescue 8 no (euthanized)
normal rescue 1 year yes
albion rescue 9 yeas yes

So, these are our most recent cases but as i mentioned, once I have some time to pull up our data base, at least a hundred more will be available to see if there are any correlations. But, from the small sample above, I don't see this "myth" as being any more than that. With proper husbandry, sanitation and diet, there is no reason why a burm can't live well into their 20's, 30's and beyond....but, I have seen so many burms improperly kept that it doesn't surprise me to hear about these shortened life spans (even on this forum).

Thanks Rob. I was really concerned about this subject and was kind of cringing as I opened the can of worms the other day. But I felt from a personal standpoint that I HAD to know. And from a breeder's standpoint I feel it is my responsibility to know. Man, I tell ya, I had some second thoughts. More than once I even deleted the thread post only to rewrite it again. I was playing out scenarios of finding out that this were true and in essence crumbling the burm market. In this scenario I could see how despised I would be by other breeders. And so I was hesitant at first. But then my conscience surfaced and reminded me that the consumer needs to know the truth even more than I did/do.

But this is very promising. And I know that you would not hessitate to shoot straight here if the situation were any less promising than it apparently is. Because you are one person that is certainly not in favor of the furtherment of the burmese retail market and us breeders churning them out by the hundreds. Had some other breeder posted these results I would view them with a grain of salt worth of any real credibility or reliability. Simply because a breeder would be less likely to post anything less than promising on the subject. A breeder, who's livelyhood depends on the market remaining strong would be more apt to bury any bad and only report the good. You see my point? So thank you Rob for taking the time to do this. It's certainly a treasure trove of information.

>>Brian, I will have much more available, however, here are a few tidbits that should help your cause:
>>
>>Type of Burm source years at home/facility still alive?
>>
>>Normal rescue 5 yes
>>normal rescue 28 yes
>>albino rescue 6 yes
>>labyrynth donation 6 yes
>>green donation 5 (transferred) yes
>>albino rescue 12 yes
>>
>>Animals that were rescued but no longer residing at WDC (these burms were treated, quarantined and placed or euthanized):
>>
>>type source age (if known) still alive
>>albino rescue 4 no (death due to severe emaciation)
>>normal rescue 12 yes
>>normal rescue 8 no (death due to heavy internal parasite loads)
>>normal rescue 8 no (euthanized)
>>normal rescue 1 year yes
>>albion rescue 9 yeas yes
>>
>>So, these are our most recent cases but as i mentioned, once I have some time to pull up our data base, at least a hundred more will be available to see if there are any correlations. But, from the small sample above, I don't see this "myth" as being any more than that. With proper husbandry, sanitation and diet, there is no reason why a burm can't live well into their 20's, 30's and beyond....but, I have seen so many burms improperly kept that it doesn't surprise me to hear about these shortened life spans (even on this forum).
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I have 2 burms now. One albino male, about 4 months old, great health. And one het for albino and green burm thats 3 months old, also in great health. I got the albino from a petstore in Connecticut. And I got the het burm from Bob Clark about 2 weeks ago.

I had a male normal burm he is around 6 yrs old now. No major problems. I got him from a pet store here in Greenville NC. I sold him to a friend.He is doing great and is still pleasing the ladies. I rescued a burm about 4 to 6 yrs in age. She bred with the male above and laid 51 eggs and died the next day.She was moving all around with her head upside down, she did not know where she was.RIP BIG GIRL I had an 4 -5 yr old albino male die from RI. It came in that way. Meds did not help it at all. I hope this helps.

>>I have 2 burms now. One albino male, about 4 months old, great health. And one het for albino and green burm thats 3 months old, also in great health. I got the albino from a petstore in Connecticut. And I got the het burm from Bob Clark about 2 weeks ago.
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@earthlink.net

No one is to be trusted

Currently, I have a 3 year old green female (that you are all pretty familiar with now, I imagine). She was purchased from a local breeder (DC area) through a pet store as a hatchling. She has not had any health problems, RI or otherwise.
I also have an albino het granite male purchased from Bob Clark in May of 2002. I estimate him to be 1 year 9 months old. He recently had a minor RI bout due to cooling down for breeding. After raising the temps back to normal, it has cleared up. He is also an overall healthy animal.
In the past, I had a female burmese that died from my own novice stupidity (long, sad story....would rather not go there). I also had a albino male that I sold at one year of age. Both animals were healthy.
Hope this helps!

Yeah, it does help. While not being over the ages we are looking for data on, it is still a positive account because of the simple fact that they are healthy and well. By not being a bad account, it is good. Thanks, and keep us posted on your big girl there as she grows older and bigger.

P.S. don't cool below 76 with daytime temps of 82-83 [I assume you already know this, but you know,.. just in case,...]

>>Currently, I have a 3 year old green female (that you are all pretty familiar with now, I imagine). She was purchased from a local breeder (DC area) through a pet store as a hatchling. She has not had any health problems, RI or otherwise.
>>I also have an albino het granite male purchased from Bob Clark in May of 2002. I estimate him to be 1 year 9 months old. He recently had a minor RI bout due to cooling down for breeding. After raising the temps back to normal, it has cleared up. He is also an overall healthy animal.
>>In the past, I had a female burmese that died from my own novice stupidity (long, sad story....would rather not go there). I also had a albino male that I sold at one year of age. Both animals were healthy.
>>Hope this helps!
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani