Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This subject was brushed on in another of my posts in this forum, but I've heard so much contradictory info on this I want to get it perfectly straight, while minimizing costs and threat to any new geckos. Some forums and websites have said that using a bleach solution is effective in killing the oocysts, while others just as strongly insist that bleach is ineffective and only ammonia is known to kill the oocysts. Dose anyone have personal experience with cleaning up after a crypto infection, or reference sites that I could personally check out? Thanks.

Hey

Just throw away everything hides etc if you have to keep the cage due to the price of them so be it but if you soak it down in aminnoia poor amonia in a bucket and dip and leave the cage dround in it.
If you throw the cage away you can get some cool tubberware stuff from walmart.

Hope that helps
Aaron

Here's a quote from the CDC (Center for Disease Control) website:

The parasite is protected by an outer shell, which allows it to live outside the body for long periods of time. It also makes it hard to be killed by chlorine disinfection.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/healthywater/factsheets/crypto.htm

It is refering to the human variant of crypto, but is true of both. For "chlorine disinfection" substitute "bleach". As the others have said, get rid of anything you can afford to and use ammonia to disinfect the rest. Good luck to you!
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Andrea A.

According to my Parasitology text book (Foundations of Parasitology 6th Edition) oocysts generally survive a long time in water but do not tolerate drying; Cryptosporidium crotali (the species that infects reptiles) is included in the discussion.

I work as a biologist and have been involved in doing predator scat analysis. In order to obtain a dry wieght scats can be oven dried at 60-70 degrees celcius for 48 hours. This drives out all moisture and kills all oocysts, nematode eggs, etc. present in the feces. This method would probably work for any furnishings you would like to disinfect for future use, provided you have an oven up to the task.

Hope this helps!
Alice

Thanks for all of your help. It's still confusing for me because some people swear by bleach just as vehemently as you guys are going by ammonia! I'm thinking I'll just do both, to be safe.

I've also read several sites regarding water supply crypto contamination, and almost all of them said that boiling the water was the most effective way to kill the oocysts. If the hides etc. were soaked in water for quite some time, and then boiled, do you guys think that this might be effective? I've already bleached everything, and then maybe I could soak it all in ammonia,and then boil what's small enough to fit, and then bake everything at the temp. mentioned just for good measure? I know it sounds like I'm just trying to be cheap, but I spent A LOT of money trying to save the lives of my babies before I knew there was nothing I could do. Bleach, ammonia, and time are a lot less expensive than replacing everything I used for them-- it was a lot more than 25 dollars in the end. Safety must be the first priority, but I have to admit I'm hesitant to chuck everything when no one seems to agree on what's really required to kill the oocysts!

Make sure you rinse well after the bleach before you apply the ammonia. Remove all the residue, because the two solutions shouldn't be mixed. Not only does it become extra toxic, but it weakens the effectiveness of both.

You have to keep in mind that there are more than 2,000 species of coccidia. Obviously, some strains can handle bleach/ammonia/extreme temperatures better than others, so of course you're going to find contradicting information. Crypto is only a category under coccidia. There are plenty of species that we don't even know about and there's still a lot we don't understand, because there hasn't been much research done on coccidian parasites.

I think you shouldn't underestimate how well the oocysts can survive. Biologists have always been saying that such-and-such environments are too hot, too cold, too dry, too acidic to house life, but they have always found microbes thriving.

I'm sorry you had to deal with losing your babies. It was great that you were able to find out what it was making them sick. But I don't think it's worth chancing with your new babies. In my opinion, it's safest to just toss everything. You can buy a 20L tank for $25 at Petsmart.
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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

Ok. Here's the breakdown: vet bills cost about 500 dollars or more. The geckos themselves were about 80. The first tank I got was about 30 something. The first set of hides and dishes was probably about 30 as well. Then I had to seperate them-- first I tried a small tank for the smaller baby, and that cost about 20. Then I found out the tank was too small, and had to get another-- another 25. I also had to get hides for her,as well as dishes and heating-- another 50 or so. This isn't including all the different foods and supplements I purchased to try to sustain their lives. I will not be refunded for any of this. I am not rich. I spent all of that money out of love and a deep sense of responsiblity.

So sure, I could throw away everything. What's another 25 dollars? Plus hides-- what's another thirty dollars? Plus 80 dollars or more for two new geckos. So what-- 135 more dollars to spend, when I've already spent well over $600 in an absolutely futile attempt to save the lives of two sweet geckos that some shmuck sold to me, knowing perfecftly well how sick they were.

Please don't make it seem like I'm trying to just be cheap here. I'm very well aware of how much tanks and hides cost. Can you honestly say that if you were in my position, you wouldn't do what you could to save some money from an absolutely terrible, heartbreaking, and costly first experience with reptiles? In the end I will either not get more geckos or just throw away everything and buy all new materials, but please understand my need to make absolutely certain that that is my only option to ensure the safety of any new geckos.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I think a lot of those expenses could have been avoided if you had done more research beforehand--knowing what the signs of a healthy gecko are, knowing what the proper tank size is, knowing who to buy from, etc. I also think that if you are reluctant to spend that additional $135, what are you going to do if your new geckos also turn out to be sick? Are you going to be reluctant to pay more vet bills? If cost is the only issue, why not wait until you have enough money saved up?

I've spent at least three times what you have on my own leopard gecko expenses. However, if I were in your position, I would not only throw everything out, but I would make sure not to get any new herps until I've moved into a new apartment (which may be anytime in the next 5 years).

I do think it's great that you're trying to shut this guy down. More power to you.
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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

I've been thinking about your dilema and if I were in your shoes I definately would want to avoid throwing out the tank etc. I talked to my mother who has a degree in microbiology.

If you look closely the CDC website is referring to the chlorine levels found in drinking water. Chlorine levels at that low level are ineffective against crypto. Chlorine bleach is another story. Chlorine levels in bleach are a great deal higher. If you want to make really sure the crypto oocysts do not survive soak the tank in a minimally diluted bleach mixture. When doing the initial empty let the tank air dry. The drying residue will become super saturated and hopefully "burn off" anything remaining. You can then rinse out the residue and I guess you could do a follow up with amonia just to make really sure

Cryptosporidium taxonomy (since there seems to be some confusion I've listed all the coccidian genera mentioned in Understanding Reptile Parasites so you can see their relationship to one another)

Phylum:Apicomplexa
Class: Coccidea
Order: Eimerida
Family: Cryptosporidiidae
Genus: Cryptosporidium
Species: Cryptosporidium crotali (about 19 species names have been proposed, but not all are widely accepted C. crotali is the species most commonly found in reptiles, but "crypto" is characterized by a lack of host specificity so other species may be involved).

Some other coccidians classified under Class Coccidia:
Order: Eimerida
Family: Eimeriidae
Genera: Eimeria, Isopora, Caryospora (these genera are all treatable with albon / sulfadimethoxine)

Hope this helps!
Alice

The amount of chlorine and types of filters used in public swimming pools are not adequate to prevent transmission.

But it goes on to say:

Swimming pools can be disinfected by using high concentrations of chlorine for long periods (e.g. 3 mg/l water for 53 hours or 8 mg/l for 20 hours.)

Here's the URL for that page:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/cryptosporidiosis/crypto_sources_of_infect.htm

BTW: None of the sources I've reviewed have said anything about ammonia. If chlorine works to disinfect swimming pools, I don't see why it wouldn't work on your tank!

Hope this helps!
Alice

That quote came right after it advises HIV-infected people (who are most vulnerable) to avoid swimming pools.
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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

The high chlorination is not maintained when people are allowed in the pool. Once the chlorination levels are reduced so that the pool is suitable for swimming the risk of crypto returns as the pool can be recontaminated by the next infected patron.

I agree low concentrations of chlorine are not effective (ie 10&15%).

The concentrations recommended by the CDC are 300% soak fo 53 hours or an 800% soak for 20 hours. Commercially available bleach is about 6% chlorine. So you're right about ammonia being the best solution for the task, and right about bleach being totally ineffective, but wrong about chlorine.

In folowing up on your links (thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response; you definately convinced me, and hopefully everyone else who reads this exchange) I stumbled on some info about hydrogen peroxide. Here are a few of the links:

http://www.familymanagement.com/childcare/facts/cryptosporidiosis.facts.html

http://www.accepta.com/Industry_Water_Treatment/Biocide_H2O2_Ag.asp

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=127548

Most of the sites seemed to indicate that it was as effective as ammonia and it doesn't have the violent reaction with bleach (the mix of the two results in salt and water)or the nasty fumes. And, as far as I know it doesn't leave a residue when it dries. I don't have any on hand otherwise I'd check the concentration. But, it may be a good follow up to a bleach soak before using ammonia to avoid a violent reaction. I'm not sure which (peroxide or ammonia)is more cost effective.

-Alice

P.S. No hard feelings, I was a bit misguided but hopefully this has been instructive.

All of this has been very helpful, although I went off a little. I particularly found the study about using specific cleaners to sterilize surfaces against crypto to be helpful, because it's truly the most relevant. Thank you very much for finding those sites and providing the links-- I feel much less in the dark now, although the topic is still confusing!

I was a bit pig-headed in equating chlorine with bleach. The solutions recommended by the CDC were 300 & 800% solutions of chlorine. Household bleach is only about 6% chlorine. Ammonia is clearly the better option.

I did, however, stumble on some interesting links about hydrogen peroxide and crypto. Not only does it appear to as effective as ammonia, but it only produces salt and water when it reacts with the active ingredient in bleach. A peroxide treatment may be a good idea on furinishings that may have absorbed bleach.

Here are some links:
http://www.familymanagement.com/childcare/facts/cryptosporidiosis.facts.html
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=127548

Oh well, this has definately been instructive! I house some of my leos in pretty expensive tanks (I have $1000 invested in nice tanks) that I can just not afford to throw away. If crypto strikes (heaven forbid) I'd definately want to find an effective means to disinfect.

-Alice

I thought my first reply had failed when it didn't show up so...

I don't understand why you keep advocating the use of chlorine bleach, when it's already known that even an undiluted concentration is not enough to kill crypto. This is pretty well known to experienced herpers, and I will quote a few:

"A Chlorine Bleach solution (at least 10%) is a safe and effective cleaning solution. It is also cheap and easily available. One drawback it has, however, is that it is NOT effective against Cryptosporidium. The only thing proven to kill Crypto is Quaternary Ammonia preparations, such as Roccal-D." kingsnake post (The rest of that post is interesting.)

"Not all disinfectants will be effective with all problems. There are essentially 5 types of disinfectants to choose from:
Inorganic iodine products (Betadine, povidone-iodine...)
Ammonia (5% ammonia solution often used with Cryptosporidum)
Household bleach (5-10% mixture - most commonly used)
Chlorhexidine products (ie Nolvasan)
Quartenary ammonium products (ie Roccal-D)"
drgecko.com

"Ammonia products are irritating to skin and the respiratory, tract and are infrequently used. However, ammonia-based products in a 5% solution are perhaps the agent of choice for Cryptosporidia spp., which are extremely resistant to disinfection." anapsid.org

More quotes from other sources:

"I figured my combination chlorine bleach/anti-bacterial soap soak was good enough to wash all of the snakes' carpet, etc. together, and ordinarily it would be, but Dr. Rossi said Cryptosporidium oocytes are also particularly difficult to kill, and DON'T succumb to hot water, soap or chlorine bleach; he recommended sterilizing things using ammonia bleach at a 5% solution, i.e. the concentration it usually comes in right from the bottle." /lampropeltis/messages/994.html]link

"Chlorine disinfection of the organism is ineffective, as it has been shown that even one oocyst can withstand pure bleach (50,000 ppm chlorine) for 24 hours and still cause an infection." wilkes.edu/~eqc/crypto.htm

"Even after exposure to full-strength household bleach, crytosporidium can remain infectious." www.qh2o.com/crypto.htm

"Disinfectants such as chlorine bleach or iodine tablets are NOT effective in killing Cryptosporidium." www.cdphe.state.co.us/dc/Epidemiology/crypto_fs.html

"Cryptosporidia organisms are very resistant to disinfectants, even chlorine bleach and survive in the environment for long periods of time (may or may not be destroyed by freezing and drying)." link

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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

PLEASE do not go down the route of accusing me of being lazy or ignorant, and this thus being all my fault and I should just quit whining. If I didn't care about the health and well being of my geckos, I wouldn't even be here on this forum for you to make accusations like that. Please do not get "harsh"! I know what I did wrong, I've learned from it, and I don't need a lecture from you or anyone else on it.

If I just believed everything anyone said on the internet, I'd be a piss poor caretaker. I've read many of these articles myself-- I'm not just leisurly waiting for someone else to tell me what to do. The thing is, I'm not getting the impression that I should just throw away everything and move. I think that's a bit extreme, and it's not what the literature seems to be saying. I have this same question open on several forums. I'm looking for a response from someone who has directly dealt with it, or can provide new routes of study for me to explore on my own. In the end it's my decision on how I have to deal with this, and instead of being "harsh" to me just be thankful that you're not in my position. You can question how well I intend to take care of any future animals all you want, but I can tell you right now that you're both barking up the wrong tree and not helping anyone.

The number one concern I have about all of these articles is that they're predominantly discussing C. parvum. C. parvum infects mammals, not reptiles-- C. serpentis affects reptiles. They're different enough to be classified as a different species, and I believe that that's reason to believe that they may be different enough to be eradicated in diverse ways. The thing is, I don't know for certain what I'm really dealing with here. That's why I'm on here asking for different opinions or sources of research! But I AM NOT asking for anyone's opinion on me, my situation, my faults and flaws, and my intentions as a pet owner. It should be pretty clear that this is an unresolved issue with multitudes of opinions-- I'm not just stirring up controversy because I'm cheap or ignorant. Instead of slinging sh*t at one another, how about we try to actually figure this out so that in the future we can provide well-researched protocol on exactly how crypto needs to be dealt with?

I wasn't accusing you of anything, and I'm sorry you interpret my posts that way. I never used the words lazy or ignorant nor did I imply them.

The thing is, there already is a protocol among herpers for dealing with crypto. The reason why I said throw out what you can is because that's what I've heard from herpers who HAVE dealt with crypto. This isn't something only newbies deal with. Breeders have had either all or quite a bit of their colonies wiped out. Why do you think people are so scared of it? Have you ever seen the look in someone's eyes at a reptile show when you say your geckos had it? They don't even want to shake your hand.

If you're still so unsure, why not go into the Herp Health & Breeding forum? The people there will give you more conclusive answers, but it might not be what you want to hear.
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chickabowwow

3.2.3 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)

This is the issue, though-- that's the protocol for experienced herpers on this site. On others, just as experienced herpers say something totally different. Scientists and published scientific articles in esteemed journals should have a piece in this as well.

If there is an established protocol, it would be uniform. If vets say one thing, scientific articles another, breeders in Canada something else, again breeders in the UK something different, and finally American breeders something else entirely, why and how am I to know that /this/ site and the people posting here are the ones that are right? THAT is my concern. You seem to be taking this as some newbie's challenge of established herper authority, but that's not my intention. Cases of crypto are treated in hospitals, both animal and human, and it is studied in laboratories. I doubt my vet will throw out his exam table because my geckos came in contact with it. I doubt the lab that performed the necropsy was blown up afterwards. I doubt that hospitals incinerate or dispose of everything that a patient with crypto came into contact with. There IS clearly some way to sterilize afterwards. And instead of reacting out of fear, accusing each other, bickering over who has the most experience, and being rude to someone simply because she's not willing to sacrifice hundreds of dollars in a potentially unneccesary attempt at erradicating a threat, why don't we seriously, honestly, calmly try to figure it out?

First, I would like to ask the thread starter if there was a definitive diagnosis of crypto in your geckos? The only way to get an accurate diagnosis is either by a complete necropsy and/or elaborate and expensive lab tests such as AFS (acid-fast staining), ELISA tests (enzyme linked immunosorbent assay), or IFA testing (immunofluorescent antibody).

There are several strains of Cryptosoridium, but C. serpentis or Cryptospridium sp. are the variety that cause disease in many reptiles. The vast majority of this mutant form of Coccidia come from wild-caught snakes, and is spread by improper quarantine procedures. This strain of crypto is not transmissible to humans, but is deadly to many reptiles. It may persist for months, and even years in a typical "reptile room" environment, and it survives most disinfection protocals; including chlorine.

The ONLY effective elimination for reptile crypto oocysts is:
- formalin (formaldehyde gas)
- prolonged exposure to high temperatures (over 65 degrees C)
- glutaraldehyde (very hazardous to humans)
- ammonia (household ammonia is 10%)

The above treatments can be extremely dangerous in not used properly with complete respiratory masks and in good ventilation, using proper protective clothing and gear. Since this is not practical, it would probably be best to discard ANY objects that the infected geckos came in contact with.

Reference: Bulletin of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarian (ARAV) Volume 9, Number 3.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Yes-- a necropsy was performed. Definitely crypto.

I've been convinced that bleach is ineffective and I'm spreading the word and the references to those that suggested it. I'm still not convinced that the only way to reliably disinfect after a crypto infection is to throw away all of the infected objects. Did you read any of the articles referenced in other posts? Several methods, not all that inaccesible or dangerous to use, have been scientifically tested and proven to kill oocysts beyond the ones you mentioned. Also, 65C is only 149F-- a pretty simple temperature to reach in a conventional oven.

I understand the fear of crypto-- remember, I just went through it myself. But why is everyone so resistant to consider that there are methods of safely disinfecting infected materials without merely throwing them out?

I know that 149 degrees F is not a high temperature, but I cannot find anything that actually states what "prolonged" exposure translates to in real time. Is it 10 minutes? 24 hours? perhaps a week? I posed the question of disinfection of crypto directly to Dr. Frederic L. Frye, DVM.,MS., FRSM., about 2 years ago, and he feels confident that straight household ammonia will effectively kill the oocysts.

I agree with you that most reptile keepers are unnecessarily terrified of Crypto.. after all, it's like the plague or "black death" for reptiles. Since all of the conventional treatments including Halofuginone, spiracycin, paromomycin, and toltrazuril are not effective in eliminating infection, at this time it is 100% fatal in Leopard Geckos. So, many are reluctant to take the risk of spreading the infection. As a Leopard Gecko breeder and former Chemical Engineer, I personally would prefer to discard the objects rather than take even a remote chance of perpetuating the infection.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I emailed the Association of Amphibian and Reptilian Veterinarians with this inquiry, and to my great surprise and pleasure they responded!

This is what they said: "Thank you for your inquiry. I know that conflicting information must be frustrating. I will give you the recommendations by Drs. Michael Cranfield and Thaddeus Graczyk, both of which have done much research with c. serpentis. This information is taken from Dr. Doug Maders book, Reptile Medicine & Surgery. 'Currently the most effective ways to disrupt the life cycle of [C. serpentis] are moist heat, freezing, or thorough desiccation. Of seven common disinfectants, only ammonia (5%) was effective. Crates, pens, feeding bottles, and utensils should be thoroughly cleaned with an ammonia solution and allowed to dry for at least 3 days.'
I hope that this is of some help to you.

The other important suggestion is to avoid purchasing known, ill animals. This is extremely important if you already have an established healthy reptile(s) at home. Good luck. ARAV "

I think at least most people could agree that bleach is pretty ineffective and that ammonia is the best to use-- this based on medical literature from the ARAV, Pubmed, and the CDC. Even I'm satisfied with that amount of supporting evidence. (; Throwing out everything does not seem to be neccesary. Hydrogen peroxide should also be considered a possibility, as it also has a fair amount of literature backing it up. Boiling seems to be another option, as well as baking-- I've heard both of these methods mentioned repeatedly. I'm assuming moist heat means steaming, but could it also mean boiling?

I'm going to say this at risk of pissing off more people than I have already: research! cite sources, and find supporting evidence! Science can help us find the best way to do things, and if it saves us money then even better. I could have just thrown away everything and none of us would be the wiser for it. Here's a whole slew of scientific study done on the subject, and can't we be glad that we have more options than originally thought?

I researched online at my college library, and found a study specifically on the use of moist heat to eradicate crypto oocysts. It might be hard to use this technique to sterilize tanks, but it certainly should help in disinfecting hides and such that could withstand the heat. I can't provide a link to it as a password is required for access, but if anyone is interested in the article just email me at llyncilla@crosswinds.net and I'll send it to you.

Here's a link:
http://www.ifst.org/hottop14.htm

Here's a quote:
Oocysts can remain viable for about 18 months in a cool damp or wet environment. They are quite common in rivers and lakes, especially where there has been sewage or animal contamination. However drying at ambient temperatures effectively reduces the infectivity of oocysts. They are destroyed by freezing and they are also heat sensitive. A temperature of 65 deg C inactivates oocysts in 5-10 minutes

Again the article refers to C. parvum, but a prolonged cooking could be a good means of disinfecting furinishings.

-Alice

np
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com