Reptile & Amphibian Forums

IF someone was to open a website that produced just one morph and sold their's at half to 2/3 your prices would that effect the market prices for that morph or would it just mean that the cheaper prices have to be breed more to keep up with the demand? I noticed that just about every morph is getting cheaper in price and is that the reason? All replies welcomed!!!

I've noticed that big breeders don't normally change prices just because other small breeders are selling for cheaper. The big breeders will sell their animals regardless of a lot of small breeders selling for cheaper. The larger breeders have something that the small breeders don't have...a reputation...thats why they are a big breeder. If the majority of breeders start to sell their animals for a lower price you may see some fluctuation in prices but not much.

I'm just wondering...why would you sell for so much cheaper? Why not sell your animals for what they are worth? When I see some breeders selling for much cheaper it makes me nervous to buy from them because they may have crappy animals and you won't find out until it shows up at your house....which would be reason for low prices. It is very easy for people to lie over the internet and cheat people without being caught. Thats why normally people go through big breeders because of the reputation. People normally can't see the animal in person until after it is bought so its better to have a good reputation before low prices.

I know its been kind of a rant but I just don't see why one would not sell their snakes for lower than they are worth. Just my 2 cents.

Luke

My .02.
Big breeders post one thing and sell for another......
Been there done that!
One big breeder wanted me to sell them my animals @ 50% off their list price.....why?
Wonder how they would sell them?
wink wink!

Got to clean up the snow outside on Monday!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Big Breeders forget that it is about the love for the animals and not the money!!! IF I were to sell my little collection of 1.1 normal balls, 0.1 redtail boa, 1.2 misc. corns for what they are worth to me then they would have a milloin dollar price tag! I just want everyone to love and enjoy say spider morphs and piebalds without dreaming of ways to come up with the thousands of dollars they bring to to seller! This is not about money for some people like myself and a few others out there.

oh please....if you owned a car lot...every car would be priceless to you....but i bet you would sell them.

oh forgot to add.... "This is not about money for some people like myself and a few others out there"

your snakes would be classified as pets. so this doesnt apply to what hes trying to ask. Im not a breeder yet either but im getting there.

another thing to think about:

If you like to build houses....(very expensive to make one), and each one you make was priceless to you....you just spent 90grand making it, and not selling it? thats what the snake market is like. Its a hobby, but you sell snakes to make up for lost expenses...then you realise you could make a living at it.

Well I see that your not a breeder yet so why even speak on the subject. Anyway how come your not a breeder? Money problems when it comes to buying what you want to breed? Okay to explain exactly what I ment about the money issues with this hobby to you. Okay unless you save at least one pay check a month you will have to wait 2 or more years in order to buy a high end morph. WHY? I understand that some major breeders live off of their snakes but that will cut alot of people off in ownership of these specail animals. Okay look at the bumblebee spider (which I love the look) at $45,000. that is unreal. You would have to morgage your house in order to buy it. NOW DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING?

I did.....yes I took out loans....OMG My face is red! I had too! But my dream came true. I paid 4x the amount I made in teaching my first year for my pieds! But producing my own albinos/axanthics/and PIEDS was priceless.........I will make my money back and then some. Will I make $500.000.00 a year - no. But it will make me happy! Boy do I love this business! 2004 yes indeed! Ya got to have them to make them!
Happy locked tails to all. And to all a good night!!!!!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Remember it's the big price tags that keep the new morphs in the hands of the best breeders and those who work the hardest at producing more of them as quick as possible. The fastest way that there will be enough say pieds to go around to all those who want one is if the price starts out very high. Ball pythons aren’t particularly prolific so it will take a lot of work to make a morph common place. High prices are the fuel that keeps the production engine running at full throttle.

I'm sure any low advertised price has some effect on the market even if it's only to cause a small backlash against the big breeders advertised prices. However, if the small breeder doesn't have enough to go around (a sure bet if the price is low enough) eventually those that really want them will have to pay the higher price if that is all that is left.

However, who is to say what the price really is. It sounds like perhaps high dollar animals sometimes don't sell for the full-advertised price. Not having ever purchased a high dollar animal I can't confirm how common this is. However, if someone wanted to advertise the price that they really move at to the general public rather than a fake price I can respect that. If the discounted price is too low they will sell out quickly and business can get back to usual.

Personally I think that IF I ever produce anything of value I’ll just auction it since there doesn’t appear to be any way to know what the real price is otherwise.

I have alot of respect for you in being honest with what you would do in selling of your high end morphs. (If ever produced) Also I understand that it is because of the big breeders that this hobby is what it is, but sit back and look at the market on pastels. Why don't piebalds go down or a couple other morphs that have been around just as long?

Are you saying that pieds should be the same price as pastels? The main thing about pastels is that they are only hets for a co-dominant so actually the prices aren't that different when you compare on a het to het (het pied to pastel) and homozygous to homozygous (pied to super pastel) basis.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the price of pieds in the next decade or two. On the one hand, the visible het thing and high initial price has generated a lot of outbreeding and presumably a lot of hets that will be maturing soon. On the other hand, they are so stunning to look at that I have to believe that even their eventual stabilization price when they reach the pet market will still be high. Also keep in mind how much they have come down already. Weren’t they like 25K for males and 15K for females just 5 years or so ago?

Yes!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

"Big Breeders forget that it is about the love for the animals and not the money!!! IF I were to sell my little collection of 1.1 normal balls, 0.1 redtail boa, 1.2 misc. corns for what they are worth to me then they would have a milloin dollar price tag! I just want everyone to love and enjoy say spider morphs and piebalds without dreaming of ways to come up with the thousands of dollars they bring to to seller! This is not about money for some people like myself and a few others out there."

There is SO MUCH that goes into producing ball pythons (or ANY ANIMAL) on a larger scale that anyone would be a fool to try to do it strictly for the money, in my opinion. It is a labor of love above all else. Yes, the "big breeders" who rely solely on their animals to make a living are extremely fortunate to be able to do what they love for a living. Then there are the big breeders who also have other means of income, and are smarter than some of the rest of us.

You have NO IDEA what this entails, and to say that we forget that it's for the love of the animals is asinine, and shows that you have very little concept of what it takes to succesfully maintain a collection of several thousand animals.
If you knew how little $$$ some "big breeders" walk away with when everything is said and done, you would probably have a very different perspective.

I rarely post in this forum, but this particular thread got my attention.

Kara - NERD
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity
Retics, Bloods, Monitors & much, much more!

If you knew how little $$$ some "big breeders" walk away with when everything is said and done, you would probably have a very different perspective.

...................

little money?............yea.....Kev is so poor he can't even afford a haircut?.........LOL,,,,,,,,,......

......guess all those $10,000 morphs don't go as far in the city as they would ere?......

have fun........

feed em up .......

But that's ok.

Like I said - some people have NO idea. I guess you're some people.

Kara
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity
Retics, Bloods, Monitors & much, much more!

I use homemade racks made for me by a cabinet maker 12 years ago......hold 40 sweaters each...$250...each....he lost his butt on that deal....LOL....

sweater boxes gotten from a guy with a truckload of them in NJ....didn't ask how he got them...I got them half price........100 of them......stuffed into a monte carlo.....try it sometime........LOL...100 lids too........

and cagemasters......

and having some more made now......

I do not run out and fill my home with freedom breeders.......for snakes or mice.....

I made /make do......

(I use 10 gallon tanks and lab cages for mice too......some were made in 1990....and I got them for free or $1.25 each........).......and I can get 10 gallon lids for $5 from pet shop........

racks from wood.........

snakes paid for by snakes........

and the only thing here worth $45000 is my house....and my butt.......LOL

.......(actually worth alot more)......(* the house)...

........tell me you and Kev do NOT have $100,000 a year plus to play with plus the hundreds of thousands you already spent on snakes?????

if not...you really need a money management plan.......

and......sell more snakes...and not trade...or keep them all...????

not bustin on you...I love everyone...........(cough)......I am serious.......I thought of it years ago.......and wondered why Kev didn't have more money on hand.......all the time.....not just after a sale.......

I have no problem with anyone......I just am me ..breeding with me.....and taking my time.........I am not in debt for much..and I like it that way.........I am in connection with no other people in my breedings.......

I love when people buy the new morph critter with a credit card.......the intrest alone kills all possible profits...then they crash the market before there is even one egg dropped from the initial invested pair..........

(****examples....morph hondurans,,,,,nelsons,,,,,,leopard geckos.....).......etc etc etc....even other milks and balls to an extent........

....so.....

have fun........clean......alot..you love it.........?? ...or pay someone to do it like too many other people do........I hate that sorta........

yep..................

is a new facility - that's what we throw all of our money into right now. It's not about "living large" - we don't drive fancy cars or live the high life. Things like that are important to some people...not so much to us. So much goes back into various projects...that's the problem with being herp fanatics - there's always that next cool animal!!!

We also have some truly fabulous employees - good help is hard to find, and when you have employees there are ALL sorts of expenses that go along with it...not that we're complaining - many of our guys are very specialized and do so well with their animals. We'd be lost without them. Our retic guy is one of the best keepers I've met - hands down. He just "gets it" with the big snakes, and we are so thankful he's here - he is one of our many rock stars!!!

"........tell me you and Kev do NOT have $100,000 a year plus to play with plus the hundreds of thousands you already spent on snakes?????"

Ok...we do not have $100k a year plus to play with. Maybe in a few years? Too many things going on right now - new place in the "start up" phase...being able to set everything up just how you want is pricey, but worth it in the long run.

It's all relative - we "make do" with a LOT, and that's great! Because there are always cool snakes to play with...and that's why it all started in the first place!

K
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity
Retics, Bloods, Monitors & much, much more!

............

..........new everything and helpers.........

yep...........you spend alot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

..........and trade alot.........

.........hope Kev makes you sign a pre-nup before it's too late.............LOL............

yep...........

I know............

.......now take some odd pics..............*(this is a pink snow aztec(zig-zag))........pink ball????????
lavender corn x albino....

...the "M WORD" until we have this new building thing off our plate. YIKES!!!

Gorgeous corn by the way!!!!

K
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity
Retics, Bloods, Monitors & much, much more!

I would say that when talking about *visible* morphs, selling
them is probably 80% about the animal, and 20% about who you
buy it from (assuming you are buying from a person that you
notice has been around for a while and has a lot of good
references...not just some nameless/phone numberless email
address!). You can expect that someone will pay a little more
to get their animals from 'Big Name' breeders. How much more...
I'm not sure, but it's got to be something.

Regarding pricing...people will usually try to sell their
animals for as much as THEY can. The *reasonable* sellers,
will usually look at the competition to see what they are
charging, and then price their animals accordingly. Assuming
they aren't in a hurry (to 'fund another project', etc. LOL),
their price will usually start out at what everyone else is
asking. Then, when they don't sell in a few weeks, they start
to drop their price until they get some takers.

Or, if you are really observant and notice that the competition's
animals haven't been moving for several weeks/months, then you
realize their price must be too high. So then you list yours at
what is probably closer to the eventual sale price (maybe 20-30%
less than the animals that haven't moved in months). Guess what?
Your animals sell!

It always makes me laugh when I hear angry people talk about other
people "Selling their animals for below the 'market price' " and
being upset about it. In my opinion, people sell their animals
for AS MUCH AS *THEY* CAN. If the 'angry' person really believed
that someone was 'killing the market', then that implies that
they think the animals that were sold were sold for less than
they were worth. However, if they really believed this, then
wouldn't they simply buy all of those 'bargain' animals and
turn around and sell them for a nice profit?

The bottom line on all of these animals is SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
The expensive animals are expensive because they are rare.
When more are produced, prices come down. If 'small' breeders
produce enough of them, then THEY will drive the prices down.
However, usually the small breeders only produce a few. So even
if they sell them for less, it won't have a significant impact
on the overall prices. Usually, by the time the 'small' breeders
start dominating the market for a particular morph, the big
breeders are already working in 3-4 new high end morphs and the
cycle continues. Of course the market for ball pythons really
hasn't been around for that long (the first morphs...albinos...
only hit the scene about 12 years ago), but that is what I would
expect to happen.

Good luck to all,
Chris

I agree.
If someone wants to sell cheaper who cares. If the person selling them at a lower price and the person who bought them at a lower price is happy...who cares? I think that a ball selling for $45,000.00 is just not worth it to me. I will wait till it comes down. Even the het pieds I bought were too high. But I spent it. No more will I purchase real high ball morphs. Under 6-8 k maybe but over that it is not worth it. IMHO I feel low white pied females will be under 5k this year. And will stay for a few years longer.
One must realize the higher the price the fewer the buyers. Last year I received an email telling me I am selling my animals to cheap. And they also said don't tell them to buy them. Interesting statement. yes/no? humm price fixing! I said they were MY animal not theirs.

Happy tail lock ups!!!!!!

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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

As in all industries lower pricing hurts the smaller business before it hurts the larger business. So by you cutting your prices in 1/2 you will hurt the smaller breeder (the guy doing one or two snakes for fun) before you will hurt the Bob Clark's and the NERD's of the industry. They have spent years building a reputation and a solid customer base that will allow them to weather the few animals you produce per year to sell at 1/2 price. This industry has the most loyal customer base compared to standard industries (ie toothpaste manufacturing etc). People come back to those companies that supply them with quality animals time and again no matter the price due to the risk involved with caring for a living animal and the emotional attachment we make with our pets.

My personal experience as a vendor at shows on the West Coast and selling online is that people are less concerned with pricing as they are with quality of the animal/product and customer service.

I am continually amazed at how some will bash those that have made this into a full time business, or even worse a successful business. Don't they realize that this business allows us to work with reptiles 7 days a week, adjust our schedule around to do what we love doing and not have to play stupid corporate games (I get to wear shorts and a t-shirt most days and can leave at 4:55 if I so desire [and not wait until exactly 5 because some overweight balding manager that hates his homelife says "its the rules"], though I usually don't get out before 8PM)?
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